Swim Fins with Booties

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nomastomas
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Swim Fins with Booties

#1

Unread post by nomastomas »

So recently, after a particularly painful experience at Pitas Pt., I decided I needed to find swim fins I could wear while wearing my wetsuit booties. Fin socks are OK for protecting feet from fin rash, but lack the traction and protection offered by booties (not to mention the warmth factor). While I love my Duck Feet Customs, they barely fit my “Barney Rumble” bare feet, let alone with 3mm booties. So, I set out to find a good, adjustable-strap swim fin (ASSF). Unfortunately, no one makes an ASSF for body surfing or body boarding (if I’m wrong, please let me know). My choice was scuba or snorkeling fins. Apparently, the difference is in the blade length, with the scuba fin much longer. I looked for snorkeling fins with the stiffest blade and widest foot pocket. After reading a ton of “reviews”, I settled on the Telos Getaway size M/L/XL for $38.

First impression, out of the box, was “holy crap, these are huge!” They are a good 2.5” longer foot-pocket-to-blade-tip than my Duck Feet (Telos=10”, DF=7.5”). The Telos are also about ½” wider as well. The DF are heavier/thicker than the Telos, but a cursory test of stiffness revealed much less difference than one would expect. I decided to cut 2” off the tip, which would place the blade length in the range with other body-surfing fins (Viper MS7, DFC, etc) and increase stiffness. The Telos have these strange “ports”, two on each blade, which I’m guessing allows water release on the down stroke for easier paddling. In my book, “easier” usually means “less thrust”, but more on that in a minute.

The adjustable straps work well, and my wide feet with booties fit comfortably snug, so I proceeded with the fin modification. Using painter’s masking tape, I traced the end shape of my Duckies, which I found was similar to most fins except Vipers, about 2” up from the tip of the Telos. Using my band saw (overkill, I know, but only took 5min), I easily cut the polypropylene plastic, but the Telos have a neoprene rubber groove insert in the center of the fin which the band saw didn’t like. This was easily trimmed with a pair of scissors. I lightly sanded the cut edges and rounded the corners. The fins were now ready for trial.

Today my local break was 4’-5’ very clean, and with two hours to high-tide, I opted to ride my new 8-0 hybrid shape, reasoning that my prone board would handle the higher tide in my second session. Once the tide killed the action, I paddled in, fueled up, made a pit stop and waited for the tide to turn. About an hour after high-tide I paddled out on the Manta with the new Telos. First impression was how much lighter the Telos are, a very different feel. Paddling out, the fins felt to have as much thrust as Da Fins, but not as much as my Duckies. This was evident in paddling for waves as well, and I missed several that I know I would have chased-down with the Duckies. Now granted, dropping 5’ high-tide, with lots of water coming off the beach would have made take-offs a bit of a struggle regardless of swim fin. Nonetheless, the Duckies definitely have more short-burst thrust. I had to adapt to a later, diagonal take-off, and once I figured that out, I was off to the races. I was also concerned about how well the fins would stay on, and was happy to find that they remained in place for the entire session. After about 2hrs the NW wind came up, and put an end to what was an enjoyable session. I caught a wave in to the cove, and then a whitewater ride to the beach. Once out of the water, with fins off and a 30yd walk across the cobblestone berm to the stairs, the value of bootie-accommodating-swim-fins was readily apparent.

Bottom line: Not as much thrust as DF or Vipers, but was easily overcome, and much improved foot comfort in ultra rocky conditions wins the day. But given a sandy bottom, its Duck Feet, no question. I’m also going to try to plug those goofy “ports” in hopes that it will improve thrust.
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Before modification. Note holes (ports) in Telos fin blade
Before modification. Note holes (ports) in Telos fin blade
IMG_2018.JPG (67.85 KiB) Viewed 7133 times
Cut line traced from Duck Feet
Cut line traced from Duck Feet
IMG_2019.JPG (122.53 KiB) Viewed 7133 times
After modification
After modification
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#2

Unread post by rodndtube »

PhillyViking uses one version of the Force Fin series with surf booties when riding the Costa Rican, Puerto Rican and Hawaiian reefs and for some colder East Coast water surfing. As I recall the fins he uses has an over-the-foot strapping mechanism.
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#3

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens »

Yes, the Force Fins have over the instep, wide strap and open toe. They are as comfy as bedroom slippers but lack the power of Ducks or Vipers. I carefully pool tested once for lap speed and also acceleration (without pushing off, how far out of the water can I shoot from bottom of deep end of swimming pool). They are hella expensive too! The ones I had I found in a thrift shop in Tucson AZ for $2 so that worked...
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#4

Unread post by nomastomas »

$214 retail!!! I guess you scored...big time. I plugged the "ports" on the Telos with hot glue. Camping on the Rincon Parkway this weekend which gives me easy access to Pitas, Hobson and the beach breaks in between. Plenty of opportunities to test new mods.
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#5

Unread post by rodndtube »

Yes, the Force Fins are expensive retail, but are available via eBay at competitive swim fin prices. Same place most of my swim fins are purchased.
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#6

Unread post by nomastomas »

Plugging the holes did increase the thrust, but still not equal to Ducks. I love being able to wear full booties. The size and frequency of swell activity, plus the seasonal ultra-high tides have pretty much scoured all the beaches of any sand. Most spots between Ventura and Rincon require a steep descent down rip-rap boulders, and then a wade across potato-sized river-rock. My booties now have gaping holes in the soles and may not last the winter. I read an ad for Voit UDTs that recommended using the XXL (US size 13 shoe) size if 2mm booties were going to be worn. Anyone had any experience going this route? The extra width would help but may be too long (?).
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#7

Unread post by Nels »

When I was still doing a lot of rock dancing around Ventura, primarily standup surfing, I got a pair of O'Neill hard soled zippered booties where the soles weren't so hard they would damage the deck of a board. I'd had a chance - this was all many years ago now- to test out a bunch of different booties for something I was writing and back then windsurfing was still big so I got a number of soft and hard soled booties to try. I still have the booties I bought afterwards as I transitioned more into prone surfing and just had enough of the crowds at most point breaks.

You can't bend the bottom of your foot, you know? This is also why a lot of flyfishing float tube fins handle actual wading boots. If you have booties with a sole that isn't just incredibly hard and high sided you might find fins that will accept them. I didn't use mine a lot but they did work when I had a size larger set of Churchills around that I kept for my bodysurfing brother in law. Whatever gets you through winter, eh?

Mine are something like these I think:

http://www.ebodyboarding.com/wetstuff/b ... ootie.html

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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#8

Unread post by nomastomas »

Not happy with the thrust of the modified Telo Getaways, I revisited my review of swim fins. One supplier of Voit UDT mentioned that the XL (11-13) UDT could accommodate booties. I wear a 9.5 to 10 shoe, which typically requires a "Large" fin, so going XL made sense to me. For comparison, the UDTs are almost 2" longer than the Duck Feet Customs. With 3mm booties, the XL UDTs are extremely hard to put on, and even harder to get off. My fear of losing a fin was quickly replaced with the fear of having to cut them off! Once on (I wade out and put the fins on in the water) I was very impressed with the ample thrust. I estimate that I improved my wave count by as much as 20%, but more importantly, paddling out was much easier as was cruising back and forth in the lineup. I used a slow, deep stroke for cruising and rapid, short stroke for wave catching. UDTs are not for the weak-legged, but not near as demanding on the legs as a recent downhill skiing trip I took. I was so impressed with the UDTs that I may replace my Ducks with a size suitable to barefoot use this summer, when the sand returns to the points around here.
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#9

Unread post by krusher74 »

Its interesting that the paipo world seems to have the most problems with fins :shock:

In the bodyboard world this never seem such a dilema and I have never seen anyone go to dive fin.

The simple bodyboard et up i 2/3mm fin sock ,not boots and any standard bodyboard fins that dont give you cramp.

I use 3mm fin sock, (or 3mm o'neil ninja socks) with MIke stewart orange dot viper fins.

voits are the heaviest worst propulsion fin i have ever tried :shock:

just my ususal 2 cent LOL ;)
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#10

Unread post by nomastomas »

I can't speak for all prone riders, but I know what works for me. I've done a lot of research on fins and what amazes me is the lack of consensus. Some see a set of fins as too heavy others don't regard the same fins as heavy at all. Some see a set of fins as having a painful foot pocket, and others see the same fins as perfectly comfortable. I've worn Churchills, Duck Feet, UDTs, DaFins and the Getaways. Haven't tried Vipers, guess I'll have too :?

When you wear the O'Neil Ninjas, do you wear a larger fin than when barefoot? I just ordered a pair of 2mm booties from Patagucci that look very much like the Ninjas, with a very thin, no wrap-around sole. I hoping that these will slip into my UDTs easier.
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#11

Unread post by Nels »

There's never going to be a consensus about fins until everybody has the same manufactured feet...and I hope that never happens.

We tend to makes things more complicated than they need to be sometimes, at least I can. Something to do with being around a long time, maybe. Play with ideas. Remember a few years ago when Greg Deets brought back the UDT? The hip thing was to do Greenough mods to the actual fins. I watched that era and while it had some practicality I suppose ...I figured I wasn't going to make anything better by doing it in my complete ignorance, but then I wasn't suffering from anything either.

The two waves which I recall nomastomas mentioning are both rock cobble and/or debris strewn points, which can be real bears to get into at anything other than high tide. He puts fins on in the water, which means barefooting on slick or barnacle/sealife encrusted rocks. One place used to have rocks mixed with some construction debris lining the shore in an attempt to control erosion. Oh the glory days of knowing where to avoid the broken concrete with foot-long rusty rebar impalers sticking out. So having some kind of bootie makes sense. Without sacrificing comfort.

Many of the new fins that have come out since the Churchill patent expired (and some earlier) have traction molded onto the bottom for stabilizing entry and exit. The bottom of the heel is still exposed but it's a 50% improvement at least. But you can't back into water at a rocky break and longer fins are still hard to front-step in.
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#12

Unread post by rodndtube »

Keith, maybe the bodyboarding chaps in your part of the world are seamless with any swim fin, but that isn't really the case as I see it in the USA and Hawaii. Having said that, it is true that critical discussions of swim fins are less prevalent in the bodyboarding world. "They look cool and go great for me" isn't part of a critical discussion and that is usually what you will read on the bodyboarding-focused forums -- demographics also come into play (age and texting-oriented writing). Demographics are also a factor on the paipo forums where most of the population tends to be middle-aged and older... we are more "cranky" when it comes to our feet, ankles, knees and legs, are feet tend to flatten out and widen with age and cold water/blood circulation makes us older guys more particular.

The same can be said about the kneeboarding world. Now, looking back to when I was a teenager surfing in Puerto Rico in the late-1960s, about all we had available to us were closed heal Cressi fins (see below). Couldn't really attach fin tethers to those (hell, there wasn't even a leg rope/board leash back then and the rubber was so thin it would likely rip out if you drilled a hole) and I would commonly use my girl friends old nylons as fin socks to prevent chaffing and blistering.

In my ideal world the discussion of flippers would be more in-line with the discussion of our boards... flex/stiffness, length and width and thickness of the fin's blade, foot pocket, distance/width of the heel to foot pocket, elasticity of the heel strap, weight, etc.

</rant off>
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#13

Unread post by krusher74 »

nomastomas wrote:I can't speak for all prone riders, but I know what works for me. I've done a lot of research on fins and what amazes me is the lack of consensus. Some see a set of fins as too heavy others don't regard the same fins as heavy at all. Some see a set of fins as having a painful foot pocket, and others see the same fins as perfectly comfortable. I've worn Churchills, Duck Feet, UDTs, DaFins and the Getaways. Haven't tried Vipers, guess I'll have too :?

When you wear the O'Neil Ninjas, do you wear a larger fin than when barefoot? I just ordered a pair of 2mm booties from Patagucci that look very much like the Ninjas, with a very thin, no wrap-around sole. I hoping that these will slip into my UDTs easier.
No I Wear the same fins from summer 2mm heal-less heal-less fin sick in the summer up to 4mm fin socks in coldest winter. only things i have found wont fit is a actual surf boot with a thick sole. but the ninjas are fine.

I would says Mike stewart vipers are most similar to a Churchills, (dont confuse these with standard vipers)

Might feet are USA 9 and I wear the L 10-12's,

http://sciencebodyboards.net/accessorie ... ot-vipers/
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#14

Unread post by Nels »

Eeeek! Cressi ("Rondine"?) full-foot dive fins! Remember when Surfer used to run ads for some kind of fin saver strap for those things? Good dive fins though. Although the image of Rod in his girlfriend's old nylons may warp my mind forever...

Once the Churchill patent expired it seemed like every fin manufacturer started offering a "similar" design including Viper/MS. Some added tweaks, the best of which appear to be drains at the bottom of the foot pockets instead of midway. Some appear to have different materials and I've physically seen one product that breaks a bit at the bottom of the pocket. I had too much time on my hands last year and spent some of it contemplating a new pair of fins should the "ifs and whens" line up. My old Ducks were flopping around on my feet. There aren't a whole lot of places near me where I can physically try on a variety of surf fins. Did try on Da Fin, and Didn't Feel comfortable in them. Traveling down to Orange County wasn't possible and the limited offerings at regular surf shops for bodyboarders were uninspiring.

In the end, in the heat of summer, I just got a pair of Churchill Makapuu fins. Less about a sense of resignation than of acceptance. I can't figure out the bodyboarding world, or at least the bodyboarding "industry". My Duck Feet still work although their failure seems imminent. I can get them anywhere, any time. Same with Churchills. Lower the bar. Nobody on earth cares what fins I use. I'm not trying to impress anybody. I just need enough power to get around and enough comfort to not cripple myself. As bland as these choices may be, they both work well on my feet. They last me for years. If one gets lost, meh, go pick up another pair and keep a spare. It's supposed to be fun and free and easy...and I work hard to keep it that way!

If I was going to buy booties for fins today I'd try these (look at the photo of the sole):

http://www.ebodyboarding.com/wetstuff/b ... ootie.html

And before I ordered them I'd call the shop and tell them what I was looking to do and ask their advice for my type of fins and these booties.

Nels
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#15

Unread post by rodndtube »

Nels, those booties look decent with a strong foot padding and good traction for walking. Not sure about all the rocks/pebbles in Central Cal, but in many of the tropical areas we get that sea weedy slipper green stuff growing on the reefs interspersed with the sharp lava and crustaceans, so it is good to have a non-slick bottom. eBobyboarding also carries some good fin tethers, O&E Fin Tethers (Fin Savers) with plenty of strap lenght for wrapping around 3mm of bootie and 3mm of wetsuit, and a pull strap (big help for the really cold numbing water/air).
http://mypaipoboards.org/flippers/fin_teathers_OnE.jpg

I have been using the Creatures of Leisure Neo Sox - High Cut which have been doing a good job for me. Just advise you try them on in-person as the quality control for "sizing" has been inconsistent.

P.S. The nylons were cute!!! Of course, most of the fun was in the removing of the nylons for my use ;)
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#16

Unread post by Uncle Grumpy »

That bootie from Jay is what I usually wear in the winter with my UDT's for surfing the local beach break.

Sorry to tell you, that sole is not really as tough as it looks and the traction is nothing special, I wouldn't recommend them for doing the rock dance; but they are comfy and not too much $.
The toes always blow out first for me so I've taken to gluing a thin piece of leather across the toe area inside of new booties/fin socks which greatly lengthens their lifetime for me.

My feet are 10 EEE (luau feet) so it's tough finding a bootie /fin combo.

I like the UDT's but my sessions never last more than a couple hours so the extra weight doesn't bother me.. and I wear the largest size but I haven't been able to find soled booties that fit them comfortably so I also have giant pair of da fins that will take a soled bootie for those rare times when I am going someplace rocky but I prefer wearing the UDT's

Thinking about it just now, I am going to get some heavy felt to glue to the bottom of the EB booties! Thanks!
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#17

Unread post by rodndtube »

Uncle Grumpy, in keeping with my old tradition of using old nylons... are you considering some nice pink or velvet colored felt for those booties ;)
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#18

Unread post by Nels »

For the last umpteen years I've used fly fishing wader materials...a fairly cheap pair of neoprene gaiters to cut for fin heel strap mediation and wetsuit repairs if necessary...something that might be more comfortable and durable than leather. Never thought about replacement felt soles for wader boots cemented onto soft booties but that's a fantastic idea. For those who don't fly fish, the felt soles are expressly for use on rocks for traction and are, well, felt...as rigid as whatever they are glued to. They rinse easy and dry quick. Not at all like craft felt though - that stuff would shred like toilet paper.

Nomastomas or others...if you decide to try any of that... I used to get my stuff at Sport Chalet. Not sure if they still carry much neoprene wading gear these days though as neoprene waders seem to have faded from popularity and the internet has risen like Retail Godzilla. If not, I'd check Cabela's or Bass Pro Shop, even Amazon.

Not sure about color...not sure about Rod at this point either but I'd still surf with him...
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#19

Unread post by rodndtube »

He he, you just won't want to be taking off in front of me with my nylons and felt'd booties.... hmmm, DaFin makes a nice pink fin.... maybe nice for Rincon Point in Californie?
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Re: Swim Fins with Booties

#20

Unread post by Uncle Grumpy »

A quick googley yields several flyfish boot sole replacements for not too much.
I suspect any heavy felt would work but they are already cut to shape.
Might make those low tide days at rocky points not so much a pita..
Gotta give it a try.
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