Technique: Riding position

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bgreen
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Technique: Riding position

Unread post by bgreen » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:36 pm

A recent thread had Krusher and Rod come out and say they ride forward. One of the things that most people who ride paipo don't get the chance to do is watch other paipo riders at all or for very long. I had the chance to surf with a few people recently and the comment was made that I ride the board forward. Where this gets interesting is when you try to surf a board made by someone who surfs further back or moves around a bit, you find the board doesn't work the same for you. I was nose-diving a new board a bit and that's where I heard the comment about being forward/not moving round a lot.

It's an interesting topic, a bit like the comments elsewhere about do you drive through the elbow to turn or turn in other ways (and of course it can be a combination) - hands which may be holding some type of handle, grabbing a rail or just steering from the nose; thigh/leg pressure or other weight distribution toward or away from a rail. There is the superman arm and just finding a line and letting the wave take you along.

There is some footage at the end of Jeff Quam's interview where you see a fair bit of weight redistribution and body movement.

As always type of wave, surfing background, desired experience etc comes into play but it's one of the least discussed topics.

Bob
Last edited by bgreen on Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by nomastomas » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:35 am

This was my response to Krusher and rod...echos what you said above...

I designed the T-Belly to be ridden from a position behind the center. To understand this, you have to understand my design process. My designs are purposeful, and by that I mean each design element has a purpose. Design elements are considered in terms of how they impact other elements, with the goal of achieving a balanced, integrated design. One consideration I always make is the relationship of the rider’s center-of-mass (COM) with the board’s center-of-buoyancy (COB). From research I have reviewed, the COM for a human male is about 51% of body height measured from the ground up (just above the navel. Females have a slightly lower COM). Without a way to measure COB, I make the assumption that it is close to the board’s COM, which my shaping software does measure. I believe that maximum planing efficiency occurs for a prone-ridden craft when the rider’s COM is located over the boards COB, AND when that point is somewhere in the rear third of the bottom. Why the rear third? Because you want to minimize wetted surface to reduce drag.

One design goal for the TB was to minimize the need for the rider to make large positional adjustments while riding. I started with, what for me, is the ideal rider position on the board (tailblock mid-thigh, elbows resting on deck and hands gripping nose), and then designed the foil (flow of volume from tail to nose) to achieve the ideal Rider COM to Board COB. Casual observation of the TB foil and outline reveals that location to be just behind center on the G2 and slightly further back on the G3 (as a result of shifting the wide-point back). Because of this design, the TB accelerates immediately and achieves maximum planing efficiency quickly. Moving forward more tan an inch or so while riding results in no further speed increase (but does release the fins!).

Looking at the typical boogie board, it is easy to see that both max width and max thickness are forward of center, which is where the boogie boards COB is located. It makes sense to me that these craft will plane best when the rider is in an extreme forward position (navel forward of center). I believe this is true for belly board shapes with a similar volume distribution and COB location. In fact, look at your favorite prone-riding craft, and locate the position where you find the board planes best. Chances are your navel will be within an inch or two of the board’s COB. Furthermore, this “sweet-spot” varies from shape to shape, and I believe each rider discovers this “sweet spot” through trial and error.
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by krusher74 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:33 am

I don't know whether my forward riding style has come from riding bodyboards with a forward of center wide point and learning the COB of those boards and thus it became my "style" Or from riding very weak waves (welsh norm is knee to waist high 6 sec period slopey bumpy surf) and getting forward to try to hold speed and stay on the wave.

or a combination of both :?

I know I drive hard through my elbow and hip bone as I will dent a board in those areas.

I remember on one of my first trips to indo struggling to make sections on fast waves I saw another bodyboarder in the water who was making everything and traveling very fast, and through watching him saw that his COB was a bit further forward than mine.
I took me a few years of adjusting to this new position as it puts less pressure on the tail and on a bodyboard makes the finless tail very loose. But in the end once it became normal to me i gain a lot of speed and made sections much easier. I also took this back to welsh wave and managed to gain more speed from weak waves

One thing i have tried to pass on to other bodyboarders, if that when riding my rail arm is usually bent at nearly 90 degrees (while holding the front corner) this in turn make my COB forward, I see a lot of riders reaching/stretching for the front of the board, this makes there COB very far back and thus the either don't go very fast or lose the wave.

When I first tired a friends paipo glide It had a very pointy nose with lack of frontal area. I found taking off and riding steep section fine, but as soon as you hit the flats or the wave lost steepness and you move forward to keep going it the front just sank. (like trying to nose ride a 6.0 stand-up board)
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4VSLVxrQaQY/T ... 3paipo.jpg

Would be interesting if I lived where waves were head-high steep and more powerful whether I could benefit and change my style to the more rear COB, of just simply having a rear of center COB/wide point board will change your style.

I guess its just like stand up riders being front or rear foot heavy.

I think In your case Bgreen you are going forward to gain speed and then the board lacks nose rocker to allow you to stay there without eventually digging nose.

I'm glad were a bunch of old dogs willing to learn new tricks (fin boxes on my next board :o )

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Re: S&S Checkered Diamond RPM Bonzer Paipo

Unread post by rodndtube » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:56 am

I think the pic answers the question -- this is a cropped version of the full sized pic (all photos by a friend in Puerto Rico, Jim Crotty), all on my Checkered RPM by Austin Saunders. I ride the Bonzer in a similar fashion but not photos. All my boards are 50 inches long (except for my Xylem which is 48" and on display in the Cocoa Beach Surf Museum exhibit -- it is a standard Xylem Malama Kai that I bought from Josh Klein).

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by krusher74 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:24 am

For comparison here area couple of me

Hopefully we can get more pictures of people to compare and contrast and see if any trend appears connected to craft design
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by bgreen » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:57 pm

Krusher,

Looks like similar body position, but the your back is arched more in photo 2.

Here are 3 photos using a board with a handle, the left are part of a sequence.
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I'll send 3 others where there is no handle.

Bob
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by bgreen » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:01 pm

A Nofin, a wood board, a Goddard style paipo.
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by krusher74 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:44 am

I can see how the handle allows a longer board to be ridden without having to reach and stretch out to much for the nose. 8-)

I usually have one my hips to knees at the back contacting the board and a elbow at the front, I find if my chests in contact then I loose the ability to swing the board into turns with my arms. Kinda like you you were riding a bike and had your chest on the handle bars.

Here is another pic showing thigh and elbow only contact, of coarse this is in a very steep wave so more to the extreme end of body contact, and also I guess with my boards being finless I have to have all my COB over the rail for hold.
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by jbw4600 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:31 pm

I ride pretty far forward as well. However, I surf a lot of steep beach breaks and so I will I often have to take off with the board out in front of me a bit to avoid nose diving. Then I will slide back forward onto the board. I hate having to do this this. I usually gets me out of sync and slows me down. I like to drive with my elbows. Consequently I like to have the wide point of the board built further forward.

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by bgreen » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:41 pm

jb,

There's a pm I sent you. If it didn't arrive let me know.

Bob

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by krusher74 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:24 pm

jbw4600 wrote:I ride pretty far forward as well. However, I surf a lot of steep beach breaks and so I will I often have to take off with the board out in front of me a bit to avoid nose diving. Then I will slide back forward onto the board. I hate having to do this this. I usually gets me out of sync and slows me down. I like to drive with my elbows. Consequently I like to have the wide point of the board built further forward.
I often get way up on the front for take offs and then when going down the face will slide the board further out in front of me to bottom turn.

Do you have much nose rocker?

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by rodndtube » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:11 pm

This is how Dr. Robert rides... at least on this wave, this day and this board. He promises to elaborate more fully. (click on the pic for a larger version to view.) Or, for a very large version: http://mypaipoboards.org/events/2012-07 ... Robert.jpg
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by krusher74 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:24 am

rodndtube wrote:This is how Dr. Robert rides... at least on this wave, this day and this board. He promises to elaborate more fully. (click on the pic for a larger version to view.) Or, for a very large version: http://mypaipoboards.org/events/2012-07 ... Robert.jpg

Aharrrrrr! 8-)

He's in the same position I ride, and the handle is allowing this position on alonger board, with no handle he would either be very far forward or reaching for the nose and stretched out, which looses TQ for turning the nose. :D

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:44 am

Yeah, looks like handle increased functional body length through increased leverage. Longer board gives more glide, planning, earlier take-offs, better peak chasing, many pluses.

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by rodndtube » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:34 pm

Okay, you itemized the "credit" side of the ledger. For balance, let's itemize the "debit" side of the ledger.
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:53 am

For sure much loss of duck diving ability! Aside from that??? I am open to hearing about it never having ridden one...

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by soulglider » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:58 am

wierd looking for those that care, bloody noses, broken fingers, wrists, noses, extra work to make, just another step farther away from the natural feel between body surfing and paipo (plywood) or belly (foam n glass) boarding and cost are maybe some minuses.
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Re: Riding position

Unread post by dr robert » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:54 pm

Regarding that clip…I think the entire ride was about 20 seconds, very small wave but had some zip and a little wall.

If you look real close at the first 2 frames you will see that almost a half of the body is off the board, tail is drifting laterally,but being controlled by the pressure from the handle and the outside rail…it's a fun experience and can be more extreme depending on the situation, ends up like riding a large hand plane sometimes, and can really set you up nicely for barrels and whatnot.

After that the body pulls back levelly onto the board for the trim/glide with the board being adjusted to the wave face from the counter pressure of the handle , and arm on the outside rail.

As Rod said,it's just one wave, and just one technique to suit that particular situation.

As for the handle itself, have yet to break a finger,nose, wrist or whatever, but I suppose there is still time.

And, a respectful question for those that employ the "superman' technique…why?
I have a hard time envisioning, let alone experiencing benefit from that on paipos… obviously a standard and totally functional approach in body surfing as in your hand becomes a planing surface, but I'm stumped on how or why it's of benefit on a paipo?

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by bgreen » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:56 am

Hello Robert,

The experience of your legs/lower body lifting off the board is one I have commented on to Jeff Quam. I've mostly noticed this going into a hollow section before it shuts down, rather than when turning or when on a full section.

I think the superman arm was very much a finless wood paipo method to put pressure on the inside rail. It's not something that comes as a natural movement.

I look forward to hearing about your new board. I sold a board (and gave one to go with it) so have ordered a new board (I took the bonzer, Jeff's board and my favourite board to a shaper and we spent a couple of hours coming up with a refinement of my favourite board). Had some fun waves last Sunday.

Speed on.

Bob

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Re: Riding position

Unread post by OG-AZN » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:58 pm

dr robert wrote: And, a respectful question for those that employ the "superman' technique…why?
I have a hard time envisioning, let alone experiencing benefit from that on paipos… obviously a standard and totally functional approach in body surfing as in your hand becomes a planing surface, but I'm stumped on how or why it's of benefit on a paipo?
I wish one of the real old timers from Hawai'i would provide their insight into the origins and art of "superman" style paipo riding. My take is that superman style usually isn't the easiest or most efficient way to ride, but it's hella fun and comes naturally to people who do a lot of bodysurfing. The perception of speed & the entire sensation of riding are much different, especially when you take both hands off the rails. When you're flying across a smooth wave like that, you can forget there's a board under you. It's easy to imagine this style evolved as a natural progression from bodysurfing. Riding superman style is essentially bodysurfing with the advantage of a big planing surface under you. Also,the traditional style of paipo riding with the rider always far forward on the board & head way out over the nose seems more conducive to having the inside arm thrust forward or swept back since you diminish the leverage (from the inside arm) and ability to control the board "bodyboard style" in that position.

I started off riding paipos as a kid using the inside arm forward and back styles because that's how I saw the older guys at Makapu'u & Town doing it, and the arm forward style felt very natural since I did a lot of bodysurfing too. I never got to see the guys riding solid Country waves on paipos using the both hands on the rails - bodyboard style. Picking up paipos again later in life and riding them "bodyboard' style opened up a lot more performance options. Made me wonder why the bodyboard style didn't become the standard way to ride in Hawai'i. You still see a lot of superman style used by paipo riders on O'ahu today. Bodyboard style allows you to really bury the rail, put more power into (and do more kinds of) maneuvers, and easily maintain control on all types of waves. Superman style requires more finesse and attention to balance and body positioning. It also allows you to drive through and make big sections while still keeping the board flat against the wave surface and planing. There's also the greater perception of speed and the fun of being in a controlled slide. Sort of like the explanation car drifters give when asked why they like driving that way. I think superman style isn't the most functional, but I feel it's definitely the more stylish way of riding. Now I use both styles regularly, sometimes switching up on the same wave. Makes riding paipos even more fun.

Superman style is alive and well on O'ahu.
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