My lates Wing board

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:57 pm

Hi Wooddave,
Thanks for the complements .I get my under water stills and video from sites like Wavescape instograms,magicseaweed.You seem to get were i am trying to go ,getting the(control) lifting surface into the wave face.I find as you call them flying foils magical,but top speed seems limited,it seems like they are not useing the levarage of the wave surface to multiply speed and drive.Like you say information over load is big problem ,and can cloud the big pick.We need to keep the KISS principle close.My next board will have lots more surface area on the wing ,and have wing tips way outside the board rails

CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:14 pm

Sorrey i posted ,i am still pushing the incorect keys.

CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:25 pm

Hi surffoils
I want to plain more on the foil plate. I dosent seem to go together to plain on a foil? as you roll off the plate the foil digs in and gives lift

SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:39 pm

Hi Chris, I tried really wide foils and I found that when you get into steep waves the foil and the lift is so far inside the wave that I had to lean into the wave to stay balanced because the Central of gravity was over the foil. See pic 1
Now I use deeper foils that lift under me. Pic 2
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CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:30 am

Hi surffoils ,Pic 1is exactly were i want to go.Foiling on one wing flying down the face,i get goose bumps thinking about it. I feel a prone rider can move the center of gravity close to the center of lift in that condition, holding high to build potential energy to drive out of there,that zone and higher is were i live ,the board has to be robust to take the beating you get in that zone.I did see your post on the big wings,the problem with foils in a dynamic zone like a pitching wave is the huge speed differential ,and having foils poping out has to be dialed into the board to control.The more you know the harder it gets to move to the next step.How big is to big ???

SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:08 am

Chris, I wanted to go there too in the vertical tube zone at warp speed , that's why I made lots of wide foils trying to tap into that vertical face, but the reality is that you still have to maintain balance and it's not possible to have lift in a tube when the centre of lift is not underneath you. I've specifically made prone foils since 2006 and stopped counting at 109 different versions or is it 129 ?
A wide foil is very stable and works well in flat waves but once you get into steep, pitching, uneven speed tubes, then a wide foil doesn't work as well as expected because you can't balance over the top of it.
Despite the possibility of extreme speed there are realities that need to be considered and balance is one of them.
I don't expect you to believe me but I expect you'll try it and then you'll know what Ive learned.

To answer you're question about How big is too big...?
I ride a foil 24 inches long X 18 inches wide. So if you go much longer than that it becomes stiff to turn.
Prone foils take less weight because your only lifting the top half of your body because you lower half is still in the water and also makes balancing a single foil easier.
When the speed doubles the lift Quadrouples ( X 4 ) so go no larger than 250 square inches in foil area unless you have a curved foil where the angle of the foil controls the lift or have a multi level foil.
Surfing craft have a top speed based on the wave speed so you only need to work your calculations within a set top speed.
If you're a Newton or a Bernoullian fan I can tell you that a flat plate is 95 % as good as any foiled foil and has less form drag, less weight and less construction worries.

Here's my latest.. Board is 48" X 17" ply , XPS and veneer.
Foil is laminated ply, 24" X 17".looks a bit like a futuristic Eiffel Tower ! It's an adaption from an earlier foil.
You'll be able to ride this one prone or standing up.
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CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:57 am

Hi surffoils,wow your data files must be full,i have followed a lot of your work ,how do you teast ,how do you deal with all that info,i find the smaller changes hard to qwantify,or put another way how do you put a number on it,i see your foils moveing forward like mine.I like the last foil shape, at your left foot i would add a triangle and add more wing out side the rails,and fair the nose at your right foot to the front deck. I have seen my next wing form , its from a hypersonic UAV i saw in popular mechanics,a very wide base all most triangular shape.I thought plate foils have a very narrow operating envelope ,and would make a tricky ride.I am iterested in the Coanda effect on my boards .i wish we could all get to gether on a good day and test boards.

CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:18 am

I am still not convinced about a fully floating wing so far from the board, what about inertia coupling ,when not at perfect pitch ?

SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:48 pm

Chris, I keep a diary and after each outing on a foil I write down what was good and what was bad about the foil and just my thoughts about why. It's too hard to remember weeks later exactly what happened.
I spent a year or two trying to copy the same foil and setups that planes have but lateral foils are hard to keep in perfect trim underwater and when you're constantly turning, especially if your using two lateral foils.
For some strange reason I decided to make two flat foils that were positioned like two water skis, and that's when I completely abandoned lateral foils. The parallel side foils smooth out the variable eddies within the wave.
Prone foiling is OK but you're still dragging your legs in the water so it's not possible to get to those high speeds that you're after. I ride a longer board and slide forward so I'm completely out of the water.
Have you thought about making a modular board so you can swap different foils on and off ?
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CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:48 pm

Hi Surffoils,i have a mill and a lathe in my work shop,and have been thinking about removable foils,but have found it difficult to come up with some thing strong but lite,it would have to be pitch ajustable,to complex.I see you have wing struts ,who made them ,is drag a problem.I fell with the big overhang i am useing i will need struts .look up hypersonic UAV and tell me what think of there wing form.I all so build sailing outrigger canoes here,wind power is as intoxicating as surf,i did a lot of foil work on them a few years ago.

SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:31 am

Chris,
Obvoiusly you're good with your hands so you could build a 'mule' board really easily. Here are a few of mine.
One is just flat 7 ply with 2 rubber layers glued on top. I used house paint to waterproof the wood and years later it's falling apart but still rideable.
The second one is a standard bodyboard and I've put 3 strips of ply as strengtheners on the hull and deck and bolted them thru the board.
The last one is a skimboard with 2 ply strips as strengtheners on the deck with foam over them.
The aluminium struts are 3 mm Aluminium I make myself but some of the larger Aluminium foils I get made for me. And I just screw the struts into the wood on the board. Really basic and I've always thought I'd lose a foil in the surf but never have.
I rate the board as the least of my worries, just as long as it's rigid enough to lay or stand on when the foil lifts it out of the water.
I Googled Hypersonic UAV and I really admire their highly angular designs that may also work for us too.
The essence of functional design is to stick with what works.
In the end, go forward with your cool ideas because thsts where you'll find real advances.
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CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am

Hi Brett, i must admit i never saw this configuration in my cooked head, but when you see it ,it looks workable ,have you towed behind a boat with your boards
Put some anthidrel on the front T foil ,leave the back one flat and make it a foil, put foot pegs and make a sit on top ski scooter? What gives you most intertainment building or using ?That wing shape i was looking at is from the Lockheed Martin SR-72.I have started on the mold.I think i will name it the SR-72 project.

SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:59 pm

I did tow behind a small boat and from that I learnt that foiling in the surf is different to river foiling. For me the theory is an all encompassing mind world where there's nothing else that enters my head but shapes and flow and angles.
The building is an exercise is how to quickly turn the drawings into reality.
The riding is the dessert where I drop into the first wave and say, yeah that does work the way I thought it would...now how do I get it to do it better.
Here's some of my earlier foils they usually have all their dimensions written on them as well as a return address.
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SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:02 pm

And a few more... I'm happy to share the dims or how each one rides.
Some are laminated ply, some are Aluminium, some are polypropylene glued together.
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SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:32 am

Hopefully if I share what I know then you other guys will do the same and we can keep this thread moving. Or we can let it die.
I'm keen to talk foil theory but here's a look at a retro zombie board I'm going to ride tomorrow, with the old wood and rubber topped board, new black square struts and a foil from 2 years ago.
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soulglider
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by soulglider » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:05 am

thats crazy sh1t!
deathbedpaipo.blogspot.com

CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:50 am

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Here are some older boards.About 6 years ago,All very good boards, most are recycled.One is in the hands of my lazy ass friend who never uses it

CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:36 am

Hi Bret,thanks for the spelling lesson,Anhedral.What do you think of a foil hinged at the root,if the hing is v shaped,open end of the V to the front,Anhedral will give the foil positve pitch,Dihedrail neg pitch ,and flat,0 pitch.make the strut ajusable,wow even a small gase strut,spring loaded foils!!In board Bell cranked suspention like F1,to control drag. lost my mind???

CHRISPI
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by CHRISPI » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:59 pm

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My last shapeing job.
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SURFFOILS
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Re: My lates Wing board

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:41 pm

Soul glider, imagine if we could all get together and swap boards, that would be a great day.
So very odd that David Tomasettis doing foils in the U.S, Chris is doings foils in South Africa and I'm doing them in Australia. Yet none of us started the other off, we all independently are doing our own version of the same thing.
I wonder if there are any others...?
Chris , that's phenomenal work, really amazing. I like the F1 suspension idea.
Have you looked at the Skychair and all those foils that get towed behind a boat ?
With my first foils I noticed that as soon as the power faded when you snap a turn or hit a flat spot in the wave, the board would instantly land back in the water and almost stop but I wanted to stay airborne throughout turns and even when I pulled out of a wave. So I use longer struts so if the power changes I stay completely out of the water and at the highest speed possible. The board above has 4" square struts and the foil itself is 4" deep but I'm still trying different configurations for prone and standup boards.
And you can see from the pics below they lift even on small waves.
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