TBG5 Step Up

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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nomastomas
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TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:48 pm

I’ve been riding the TBG2/3/4 for almost two years now, in various conditions, and I have had the opportunity to experiment with many different fins configurations. On the whole, the G4 performs extremely well in waves up to 6’ face, with plenty of speed and responsive turns. However, as wave heights begin to exceeds head-high, speed begins to max out. I’m convinced that leg drag is the major culprit here, and that additional length might remedy the problem. With that in mind, I’m building a “step-up” version of the TB.

Because the TB is a truly custom shape, with each one tailored primarily to the height and weight of the rider, this first version will be tailored for yours truly at 5-10/195 (with wetsuit). Increasing the length means moving the wide-point forward, as well as the fin array, so that the relationship between the rider’s hip, the shape’s wide-point (WP) and the fins remain the same as in the G4. When the length is increased the rider can no longer reach the nose when kick-paddling and must find an alternative location for gripping the board. Some riders will simply grab the rail at a location further away from the nose. I don’t care for this solution because it places the rider’s elbows over the edge of the rail where they can produce drag (I’ve had my wave-side arm ripped off the board when in this position, while riding a steep, fast-moving wave). Another alternative has been the use of a handle placed on the deck. I like the leverage and grip afforded by a handle, but I don’t care for the aesthetics.

One solution I considered was to create two large bumps or wings 6” down from the nose similar to the Wave Arrow (http://mypaipoboards.org/riders/Gus_Aco ... osta.shtml). But, here again the elbows are overboard or close to it. And I didn’t like the abrupt change in the outline at a place in the outline critical to late drops. My solution has been to design what could be called a built-in handle, by shaping a fork-nose, similar to the Gemini by Jon LaLane/Jeff Alexander. (http://www.lalasurfboards.com/gemini.html). I also have become influenced by the bottom contours being used by Maurice Cole (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=887oTdGshzM). The ultra-deep single concave concept is a great way to keep the bottom flat (and fast) while maintaining enough curve in the rail to enhance turning. Third influence for this shape has come from Bruce McKee’s Quattro System. I really enjoy the performance and versatility of quad fins. The McKee formula places the rear fins closer to the stringer for smoother rail-to-rail transitions; less of a twinny feel and more of a thruster feel. Moving the rear fins inboard, fit well with the single-concave out the tail, eliminating the G4’s double exit concave. This board will join two other new boards in my 2016 El Nino Quiver; a 7-10 quad speed egg and a 9-9 longboard semi-gun (getting glassed this week).

I haven't firmly committed to fin placement, but everything else is pretty much set. Still stringer-less eps (2.0pcf)/epoxy , with double 4oz deck and single 40z bottom. I may opt for S-cloth on this one. I'm really anxious to see if the present 4.6 front 4.0Rear fin will keep me where I want to be. C St when overhead requires that the rider maintain a really high line or risk falling behind. I'm also hoping that the added 3L won't impair duck-diving. Shouldn't but...
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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by SJB » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:43 pm

Your attention to design is always impressive Nomas....and I am hooked on my G2 and G4....but this G5 seems a strange animal. At first blush:

1. Mega float.
2. Why do I picture those gull wings catching and deep sea diving on hard turns?
3. I can't picture how one develops the leverage for a hard cut back if one has both hands in the notch....but then perhaps the obvious answer is one hand in the notch and one on a rail? Hmmm....Kinda kinky language. :roll:

Look forward to a test drive.

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by bgreen » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:48 pm

I'm the same height and rode 53" boards without a handle, so I must have just adjusted the where I grabbed. I would just try it with the normal nose and see how it goes. Personally I think a handle would look better than the fork nose.

I agree on the issue of elbow placement - I was getting a lot of spray in the face because my elbows were protruding into the wave face (compensating for a dodgy back probably).

Speaking of concaves the board Greenough shaped for Dave Rastovich is interesting - it also affords an alternative leverage point. Have a look at the latest issue of TSJ (24.2). It also has a serious concave.

Bob

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by krusher74 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:25 pm

i'm about 175lb, and found going from 23L to 25L that the 25L took a lot more effort to duck dive but its possible, but I would e personally tempted to take the extra L's back out of the deck somewhere and keep duck diving easy.

I was informed that the faster a fin goes through the water the more drag it creates, thus being its own top speed limiter. :?

I have also found with bodyboards in bigger waves I go for a step down, I use the larger step up) volume board in smaller weak surf, once in good big surf the volume of that board becomes a hindrance (letting less rail sink in) In bigger surf a smaller volume lets me have much more control, and with the extra power I dont need the volume to get going.

In surfboard terms I would say weak surf my paipo is a 6.2 fish, in good surf I change to a 5.11, performance short board.

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by krusher74 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:29 pm

krusher74 wrote:i'm about 175lb, and found going from 23L to 25L that the 25L took a lot more effort to duck dive but its possible, but I would e personally tempted to take the extra L's back out of the deck somewhere and keep duck diving easy.

I was informed that the faster a fin goes through the water the more drag it creates, thus being its own top speed limiter. :?

I have also found with bodyboards in bigger waves I go for a step down, I use the larger step up) volume board in smaller weak surf, once in good big surf the volume of that board becomes a hindrance (letting less rail sink in) In bigger surf a smaller volume lets me have much more control, and with the extra power I dont need the volume to get going.

In surfboard terms I would say weak surf my paipo is a 6.2 fish, in good surf I change to a 5.11, performance short board.
I also had the up rail you have at the nose on my first board, that gave a great hull entry to the nose of the board that caught waves super easy and never dagged. :D

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by Cuttlefish » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:27 pm

Can I buy it when you're done with its sea trials?
;)
Thought about a longer prone board that doesn't need flippers to paddle into larger waves for ages.
Good to see you making one.
I'm going to try prone riding a Firewire baked potato that is at the lower limits of my comfortable foam for stand up surfing and see how it goes.
Only a rat can win the rat race.

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by bgreen » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:55 pm

Cuttlfish,

I sent you a pm. Length is one factor - a slightly thicker board is worth considering.


Bob

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:30 pm

"Thought about a longer prone board that doesn't need flippers to paddle into larger waves" Yes, indeed...I arm paddle my 48"er about 50% of the time, although never to catch waves. I have to be way, too far forward, with the nose under my chin, to arm paddle. Its more like swimming with the board 90% submerged under me, than anything else. As length begins to impinge upon kick-paddling, arm paddling (and the volume needed to support it), comes into consideration. This is going to be an interesting experiment...
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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:00 pm

krusher - the lesson learned from big wave surfing is that volume (and surface area) is necessary to obtain sufficient paddle speed to drop in. Tow-in big wave surfing has taught us that once in the wave, that length/width/volume is more of a hindrance than a help. Both Goddard and Acosta have argued that the higher volume helps to keep the board on plane, which allows the prone rider the necessary speed required to keep up with larger waves. Again, this is new territory for me, but it makes sense, theoretically. Finding the happy medium between too much volume and not enough volume is the challenge.

"I was informed that the faster a fin goes through the water the more drag it creates, thus being its own top speed limiter." -krusher
That may be true, but I would say that for a finned p-board, that top "limited" speed is greater than it would be if the p-board were finless. One reason is that because of the fin, I don't have to engage as much rail into the wave face to hold position on the wave. Less rail means less form drag. I know you had a poor experience with the "knubster" fins, but I don't consider that to be enough fin to do anything performance-wise. You'll just have to make a trip to SoCal in December and experience what I'm talking about first hand. :D
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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by bgreen » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:00 am

Nomas,

I've ridden 4 Goddard style boards finless and I wouldn't say that adding fins makes them faster - you have more control and can draw different, tighter lines.

With the arm paddling, more volume certainly helps. I've had a couple of paipo from Huie, an established shaper. His tendency was to move volume forward, under the chest - I like less up front. Today I read an interview with Shaun Tomson - he said he has altered his boards as he has got older to put volume forward, including thicker noses. For me, most of my boards have had thinner noses, even the Galera NoFins. The other route to arm paddling is a narrower board.

More volume may also provide more stability.

Bob

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by krusher74 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:56 pm

nomastomas wrote:krusher - the lesson learned from big wave surfing is that volume (and surface area) is necessary to obtain sufficient paddle speed to drop in. Tow-in big wave surfing has taught us that once in the wave, that length/width/volume is more of a hindrance than a help. Both Goddard and Acosta have argued that the higher volume helps to keep the board on plane, which allows the prone rider the necessary speed required to keep up with larger waves. Again, this is new territory for me, but it makes sense, theoretically. Finding the happy medium between too much volume and not enough volume is the challenge.

"I was informed that the faster a fin goes through the water the more drag it creates, thus being its own top speed limiter." -krusher
That may be true, but I would say that for a finned p-board, that top "limited" speed is greater than it would be if the p-board were finless. One reason is that because of the fin, I don't have to engage as much rail into the wave face to hold position on the wave. Less rail means less form drag. I know you had a poor experience with the "knubster" fins, but I don't consider that to be enough fin to do anything performance-wise. You'll just have to make a trip to SoCal in December and experience what I'm talking about first hand. :D
hopefully I will get down and try the T-belly out in some good C street. 8-)

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:00 pm

My p-boards, including my earlier Goddard-esque shapes, are faster with fins than without. Finless, my p-boards have bursts of speed, but then de-accelerate when they inevitably fall out of the face and slip down the face as wave steepness and wave speed increase. My finned boards will stay glued to the face, anywhere on the face, until the wave breaks. It is possible that other fin-less p-boards never fall out of the face, and are thus able to sustain speed (even accelerate) across long sections, regardless of wave steepness. Its just that I, personally, have never ridden one.

Bob, I think you summed it up quite nicely. With fins "...you have more control and can draw different, tighter lines." and if those different, tighter lines lead to more speed, so be it.
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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by bgreen » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:45 pm

Nomas,

I never found a problem with them dropping out in steep faces, it was more the opposite, once the steeper face flattened out then there wasn't that hold (this was especially true of the NoFin in smaller waves), some of the other boards would just keep planing, the problem was more that a tight arc was more difficult.

One of my Goddard boards particularly, had instant speed, basically as soon as I took off. Other boards don't seem to have that same quality. Often it wasn't a matter of gaining speed it was more controlling the speed. These boards were less about accelerating through turns and just having that instant speed, which increased as wave power increased. If interested I can post a photo or two.

Bob

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:12 pm

After considerable thought, I put he TBG5 on the back burner, kept the outline and the design goals, but scrapped just about everything else. Whole new bottom contour and foil. Still 52" long and around 25L. Quad fins, probably Future Controllers. I'm calling it the "TBX". Should be ready to test in a month or so...WNW swell permitting.
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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by Pes78 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:07 am

Saw a handplane shaped like your first post on Instagram. Think it's a guy from Santa Cruz, looking forward to what you have brewing.

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by bgreen » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:58 am

Nomas,

I'm curious. What prompted the re-think? I look forward to seeing what the new board is going to look like.

Bob

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:16 pm

I want to preface this by saying that I spend a great deal of time thinking about surfcraft design. I’m constantly scouring the web, looking at boards of all types, new and old, big and small, reading/studying/questioning the opinions of others on surfcraft design. The shop where I shape, does a busy ding repair business, so there are always a number of shapes available to fondle and scrutinize. So, I always have these design ideas floating around in my head. Oftentimes, it’s not a complete design, but a partial one. Later, sometimes days and sometimes years, another idea pops into my head that fits with existing ones, and bingo, a new shape is born.

When I began to build a p-board for larger waves, I thought I could just extrapolate from the G4. After all, the G4 has been a tried and true success, at least in the opinion of those who have ridden it. At the time, I was also very focused on building a LB for bigger waves, sort of a LB semi-gun. Everything about that board is different from my standard LB, except the length. All of the design factors serve the purpose of “speed with control”. The rocker is flatter in the tail, with more kick in the nose. Both nose and tail are pull in, and the bottom goes from convex to flat to V through the fin array, back to flat out the tail. No need to increase lift, penetration is more important, and so on...

I built the G4 for optimum performance in small waves, with a focus on responsive turning, hold and speed. I reasoned that since the new GX has a different agenda and is focused on early wave entry, projection/drive out of turns and speed, it needs a completely different design. So, I went back to the drawing board (Aku) and came up with something very different. I haven’t quite got it nailed down, in fact I made a change to the wide-point location just this morning, but I’m really close.
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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by bgreen » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:40 pm

Nomas,

Thanks. It will be interesting to see what you come up with. Rather than just the size of the wave, the type of wave is a key variable.

Ironically, the photos/footage of the biggest waves I've seen ridden on paipo, were finless boards (the Waidelich/Growney HPD style footage from the 60s and Sean Ross at Pipeline) and the Galera NoFin (seen every time we log onto the forum). The HPD being only 40" and the NoFin around 57". Surfer fitness explains some of the ability of guys to catch large waves on such small boards.

Bob

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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:26 pm

bgreen wrote:Nomas,.. Rather than just the size of the wave, the type of wave is a key variable.Bob
Yes, I'm thinking slope-y C St., but I might try to get out at Pitas Pt as well (getting back in will be the bigger problem there), and SJB favors Little Rincon (another point break better accessed at low tide). I think wave shape is more critical for finless boards, but you may believe differently? I think my bottom contour will work in either slope-y or steep conditions, and appropriately-sized fins do increase hold in steeper waves, at least on my shapes they do. I won't be paddling out at the Wedge or Pipeline, or even Santa Clara Rivermouth for that matter.

Your comment about conditioning is well taken, but I'm more concerned about the paddle out, and battling the strong side-currents. Here, I think the longer shape will allow me to simultaneously arm-paddle and kick-paddle better than on the G4. I'm a pretty strong arm-paddler, but having the nose right under my chin is not all that comfortable. Definitely a recipe for disaster when taking off. I think I can increase volume by a couple of liters and still duck dive as well as I can on the G4. I won't know the answer to a lot of these questions until I get the board in the water, under the conditions described.
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Re: TBG5 Step Up

Unread post by nomastomas » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:07 pm

I finally pulled the trigger and ordered the blank for the TBX. If asked to describe it I would say that it is 52" long x 22-3/8" wide with a multi-plane bottom; belly in the nose blending into a tri-plane mid-third and finally into a deep panel-V exiting the tail. There is slight concave in the outboard panels, as well as the V-panels, but only enough to give the rail a little more grip. The center plane is flat. I creased the nose rocker to 3.25" but kept the TR @3/4". The rail is almost identical to the G4, transitioning quickly from an up rail in the nose to a down rail in the tail. I pushed the wide-point forward about 4" and added a "hip" just behind the front fin (quad set-up). Rearward of the hip, the outline flattens in a manner similar to early-80s SB. Tailblock was reduced to 16", just slightly wider than my mid-thigh width. I changed the foil, pooling most of the foam just forward of center and tapering it more at both ends. I believe this redistribution will help to make dropping in easier, support the more forward riding position intended for this shape, and maintain duck-dive ease. I deepened the deck concave to help keep the rider centered (may even add deck pad) and plan to use a 4" deep 9" wide notch in the nose, fork-nose design. I should have the finished but un-glassed blank done in a week or two...
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