Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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rodndtube
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by rodndtube » Mon May 28, 2018 10:09 am

I am with you on this, Krusher, as in my opinion the 42" boogie board already has so much more flotation than my 50" paipos. But, as you know, different strokes for different folks, from "SUP paipos" to "barely buoyant wood paipos."
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by krusher74 » Wed May 30, 2018 3:40 am

rodndtube wrote:I am with you on this, Krusher, as in my opinion the 42" boogie board already has so much more flotation than my 50" paipos. But, as you know, different strokes for different folks, from "SUP paipos" to "barely buoyant wood paipos."
Yeah, I'm still on a quest to have a custom bodyboard made as similar to my paipo design as possible to see how similarly they ride give the different constructions. (hopefully this winter)

With the bodyboard industry being small and catering to its main market. In standard shop boards there isnt really the diversity of boards there should be to correctly cater to all people. For example if you have 3 guys who are all 5'10 they should all ride a 42" (this is going to be the best ergonomic length) but one might be 140lbs next 180lbs anf third 225lbs. The stock 42" bodyboard is going to suit a 160lbs rider, so volume wise bit big for guy 1, bit small for guy 2 and far to small for guy 3.

And this is one main reason people struggle with bodyboards. They dont do different volumes of a 42" board. other than the fact there is no industry standard on board thickness, or volume written on boards. So when you buy that 42" of the internet its a lottery as to what volume your gonna get.

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by nomastomas » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:23 pm

"... I'm still on a quest to have a custom bodyboard made as similar to my paipo design as possible to see how similarly they ride give the different constructions."

Now THAT would be interesting! Use a mailing tube to send them a construction paper template, and define the angle of the rails. They should have no problem cutting the outline and rails (which is done simultaneously on a band saw) The difficulty will come with shaping the concave bottom with the V out at the rails. That's going to require some planer work with a grit barrel and a disc sander to finish. (Chemically, bodyboard cores are pretty much all variations of polypropylene foam, which is very rubbery. The quality that gives it its toughness also makes it hard to shape. A planer with blades will tear chunks out, while a grit barrel is more like sanding with 36g paper) Once the core is shaped, the skins can be applied as usual. It will require much more labor than the typical bodyboard, which is where the cost will be impacted. Still, a very interesting project, nonetheless...
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by krusher74 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:39 am

nomastomas wrote:"... I'm still on a quest to have a custom bodyboard made as similar to my paipo design as possible to see how similarly they ride give the different constructions."

Now THAT would be interesting! Use a mailing tube to send them a construction paper template, and define the angle of the rails. They should have no problem cutting the outline and rails (which is done simultaneously on a band saw) The difficulty will come with shaping the concave bottom with the V out at the rails. That's going to require some planer work with a grit barrel and a disc sander to finish. (Chemically, bodyboard cores are pretty much all variations of polypropylene foam, which is very rubbery. The quality that gives it its toughness also makes it hard to shape. A planer with blades will tear chunks out, while a grit barrel is more like sanding with 36g paper) Once the core is shaped, the skins can be applied as usual. It will require much more labor than the typical bodyboard, which is where the cost will be impacted. Still, a very interesting project, nonetheless...
The Ex Toobs custom board builder has beem putting concaves etc in all his boards for years. He's just up the road from you. i've just been waiting for him to get Ronin bodyboards going and hopefully this winter will get my custom. https://www.facebook.com/roninbodyboard ... =3&theater

Its interesting that I would say over 95% of bodyboarders I have met over the years have very little knowledge of board design and dont really seem to care. And most seem to duscribe bodyboards as expensive even though there the cheapest surf craft you can buy! :shock:

Its a strange subculture. Paipo riders seem to have much more in common with stand up surfers than they do with bodyboarders,

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:55 am

nomastomas wrote:"... I'm still on a quest to have a custom bodyboard made as similar to my paipo design as possible to see how similarly they ride give the different constructions."

Now THAT would be interesting! Use a mailing tube to send them a construction paper template, and define the angle of the rails. They should have no problem cutting the outline and rails (which is done simultaneously on a band saw) The difficulty will come with shaping the concave bottom with the V out at the rails. That's going to require some planer work with a grit barrel and a disc sander to finish.
Krusher, don't your boards also have quite round rails up front and belly up front(?) ? Those are not such simple cuts in bb world I think though it could likely be figured out how to do them by hand

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by nomastomas » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:39 am

Its pretty clear that the lower cost of bodyboards compared to foam-and-glass is directly related to the labor required to produce them. While EPP foam can be shaped, apparently there is no demand for shapes that require much more than a little band saw work, and maybe a couple of "channels" scrubbed in (looking st the Toobs site, I couldn't find any true half-length blended concaves, such as the ones on Keith's board or mine). They (shapers and riders) seem to be of the "if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it" philosophy. And, with stunning performances at Pipe and Teahoopo, who's to argue?
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by zensuni » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:42 pm

A good alternative would be a epoxy/fiberglass paipo covered with a soft top, I have a surf boards like that.
It is nice because you can feel that it is stiff, heavy and won't bend under pressure, but it won't hurt you.

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by Nels » Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:13 pm

Higher end bodyboards now run just south of $300. Given the size relative to short boards for standup surfing the cost is roughly in line. Of course comparing things that way is probably fraught with peril. I suspect the bodyboard costs are distributed differently than with contemporary surfboard materials and construction.

Clyde Beatty Jr. has a version of epoxy covered with some soft material in his paipo, but it's that thin soft "skin". I have no idea how a ding on those boards would be repaired.

As to the somewhat stale appearance of bodyboard design I seem to be joining the "if it ain't broke" mindset (at least today on a lazy Sunday afternoon)...but after nearly 5 decades of hardcore surfing I don't kid myself that I'm out pushing any barriers in the grand sense. Just trying to push the personal limits of fun! I once asked a friend of Greenough why no bodyboard company offered him $20,000 dollars and a bunch of bodyboard materials to see what he could come up with; the second-hand reply was that those types of offers usually came with all kinds of regulating stipulations and he didn't need the hassle.

I read somewhere, some time, years ago, that Tom Morey observed that the Boogie/bodyboard is like a mammal...soft on the outside, structure on the inside, as opposed to the exo-skeleton that is the standard board. Like a living thing. And a real sponge is a living thing...

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by krusher74 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:18 pm

GeoffreyLevens wrote:
nomastomas wrote:"... I'm still on a quest to have a custom bodyboard made as similar to my paipo design as possible to see how similarly they ride give the different constructions."

Now THAT would be interesting! Use a mailing tube to send them a construction paper template, and define the angle of the rails. They should have no problem cutting the outline and rails (which is done simultaneously on a band saw) The difficulty will come with shaping the concave bottom with the V out at the rails. That's going to require some planer work with a grit barrel and a disc sander to finish.
Krusher, don't your boards also have quite round rails up front and belly up front(?) ? Those are not such simple cuts in bb world I think though it could likely be figured out how to do them by hand
I have a bodyboard 20 years ago with a rail that went from chined in the rear to round in the front so I know that can be done. front belly i'm not sure of :?

I'm most interested in the rear half being as similar as possible to my paipo that's the business end 8-)

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by krusher74 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:26 pm

nomastomas wrote:Its pretty clear that the lower cost of bodyboards compared to foam-and-glass is directly related to the labor required to produce them. While EPP foam can be shaped, apparently there is no demand for shapes that require much more than a little band saw work, and maybe a couple of "channels" scrubbed in (looking st the Toobs site, I couldn't find any true half-length blended concaves, such as the ones on Keith's board or mine). They (shapers and riders) seem to be of the "if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it" philosophy. And, with stunning performances at Pipe and Teahoopo, who's to argue?
This board had single concave (the only current buyable board i know with it.) https://www.stealthboards.com/products/speed-dealer-iss

"The main difference from other boards, is a rail to rail single concave bottom in place of channels. A single concave provides lift, facilitating water flow, providing greater speed in clean waves. As this water is channelled through the board tail, this provides the hold normally produced by channels. This is technology is achieved by an AKU shaping machine, using process’ derived from the surfboard industry."

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by nomastomas » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:15 pm

OK... one out of how many bodyboard producers?
krusher74 wrote:...This is technology is achieved by an AKU shaping machine, using process’ derived from the surfboard industry."
Yes, of course...doing one by hand would be exceptionally labor-intensive. That's the first I've heard of a bodyboard blank being machine cut. I wonder if the entire shape is CNC'd? Marko makes a foam called "iFoam", which is a secret mixture of EPP and EPS foams (said to be used in car bumpers) It is incredibly resilient. I would never attempt to hand-shape a board using iFoam. Finish shaping a machined iFoam blank is hard enough, even with a "high-resolution" cut. I once had an order for a swallow tail shape in iFoam. Aku is unable to cut swallow-tails, so it has to be cut out and finished after machining. Cutting the tail wasn't so difficult but finishing and contouring the wings was. After several unsuccessful attempts with a variety of shaping tools, I finally grabbed my 7" sander and attacked the tail. I finally started to see some results. I use a technique learned from watching my glasser sand surfboard rails; gun the disk, take your finger off the trigger and stroke the area needing sanding. The friction from the abrasion naturally slows the speed of the disk and prevents over-sanding. On one stroke, my timing was a little off and I was still pulling the trigger when the disk hit the spot I was working on, causing the disk to grab and skip across the deck. That would have been close to catastrophic on any other foam. But the errant disk just skipped across the deck without doing any damage. As I said, incredibly resilient.
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by krusher74 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:50 am

nomastomas wrote:OK... one out of how many bodyboard producers?
krusher74 wrote:...This is technology is achieved by an AKU shaping machine, using process’ derived from the surfboard industry."
Yes, of course...doing one by hand would be exceptionally labor-intensive. That's the first I've heard of a bodyboard blank being machine cut. I wonder if the entire shape is CNC'd? Marko makes a foam called "iFoam", which is a secret mixture of EPP and EPS foams (said to be used in car bumpers) It is incredibly resilient. I would never attempt to hand-shape a board using iFoam. Finish shaping a machined iFoam blank is hard enough, even with a "high-resolution" cut. I once had an order for a swallow tail shape in iFoam. Aku is unable to cut swallow-tails, so it has to be cut out and finished after machining. Cutting the tail wasn't so difficult but finishing and contouring the wings was. After several unsuccessful attempts with a variety of shaping tools, I finally grabbed my 7" sander and attacked the tail. I finally started to see some results. I use a technique learned from watching my glasser sand surfboard rails; gun the disk, take your finger off the trigger and stroke the area needing sanding. The friction from the abrasion naturally slows the speed of the disk and prevents over-sanding. On one stroke, my timing was a little off and I was still pulling the trigger when the disk hit the spot I was working on, causing the disk to grab and skip across the deck. That would have been close to catastrophic on any other foam. But the errant disk just skipped across the deck without doing any damage. As I said, incredibly resilient.
Apart from a few custom shapers round the world, 90% plus of the board come out of the nick mezrik (NMD) factory in Java. they make all the major brands boards, and seem to do all the R&D too, so unless they invent something new the boards just stay the same.

They are using the CNC shaping to do the latest quad channel , its funny because if you look at every major brads catalogue this year they all have a "version" of that same quad channel board.

See how many of the same board by "different" companies you can spot https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bodyb ... 734#imgrc=_

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by nomastomas » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:47 am

Great insight, Keith...Well, that pretty much explains the lack of progression in design and the "generic" quality of the industry as a whole.
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:57 am

If iFoam is same or similar to what I bought about 25 years ago, shaped in keels and concave paipo, it has tremendous float and really is bomb proof. Shape it and ride it, no sealing or coating of any sort needed. The outfit I bought the board from has long since vanished by the called it "automobile bumper foam". Extremely light weight too.

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by nomastomas » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:52 am

iFoam is described as a "closed cell" foam that resists intrusion by a liquid (both water and resin) I think water intrusion is a relative thing, with some foams (notably EPS) drawing in liquids more than others. I've shaped probably half a dozen iFoam blanks and I wouldn't attempt to use it in the water without at least a resin sealer coat. A sanded finished iFoam blank has this odd "fuzzy" quality which I believe are pieces of the EPP foam. The other problem is the EPS foam component which is notorious for liquid absorption (note: higher density EPS less susceptible, "pressure-molded" less susceptible; slab-cut, 1.5lb density most susceptible) If the board you described was "molded" (a.k.a pop out) then it probably had a thin skin or crust on the surface which is an artifact of the molding process. All foams created in molds, either from poured chemical mixtures or pressure-ized beads, have crusts. But...a sealed iFoam blank just might work....(wheels turning)
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by krusher74 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:59 am

GeoffreyLevens wrote:If iFoam is same or similar to what I bought about 25 years ago, shaped in keels and concave paipo, it has tremendous float and really is bomb proof. Shape it and ride it, no sealing or coating of any sort needed. The outfit I bought the board from has long since vanished by the called it "automobile bumper foam". Extremely light weight too.
On the subject of foam, bodyboards use two different foams PE (polyethylene) cheaper boards which soaks in water. and higher end PP (polypropylene) with is non water absorbent (super cheap boards are EPS expanded polystyrene but the there the sup $50 board that should be totally avoided)

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by krusher74 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:00 am


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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by CHRISPI » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:25 am

I thought my boards were weird

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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by SURFFOILS » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:56 am

Your boards are amazing Chrispi !
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Re: Bodyboards discuss (the soft paipo)

Unread post by rodndtube » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:26 am

I see that Webs (aka paddling gloves) were on the list. I love them! And Webs were the best made of the lot. Today's paddling gloves, mostly H2O, have a nice family of warm water (finger tipless) to cooler water versions (thicker mm), but the production quality is very poor and the hand/fingers layout isn't much better. Most also have an advantage in addition to paddling and that is board gripping power and reef/rock protection (but not sea urchins penetration prevention!).

Having said that, I don't use my arms to routinely paddle out to the reefs, mostly just my swim fins/legs. Gloves are not a huge factor for me in catching waves as I rely mostly upon positioning rather than paddling like a longboarder to catch a wave. Gloves do come in handy for those sprints to get outside during ghost sets.
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