T-Belly Generation 2

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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rodndtube
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#61

Unread post by rodndtube »

A number of bodyboarding friends have told me that doing a spinner is just a creative way of performing a stall maneuver. Regardless, not my style or cup of tea but certainly better than most of the aerial junk people are doing.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#62

Unread post by soulglider »

get of my lawn you little bastards!
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#63

Unread post by nomastomas »

I happy enough with the performance of the G2 and now I need to refine production techniques aim at reducing cost. Despite its small size, the G2 requires hours of shaping due to all of the deck and bottom contours. That transfer directly into labor costs. The best way to reduce labor cost is to automate as much of the process as possible. Enter the shaping machine. Yesterday Marko Foam delivered this 43" TBG2. I reduced thickness at the centerline to 2" and at the rail to 2-3/8". Volume was machine calculated at 20.1L
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#64

Unread post by jbw4600 »

I have never had a problem with too much hold or turning on my twin fin boards. I have come flying off faces of big waves with someone unexpectedly in front of me and I can turn on a dime to avoid them. I can make big turns or quick little turns. I could probably do 360s if I wanted to. This last weekend I did snaking turns mid-face on the steep sections of a several waves. So there is no problem getting stuck on a wave. I will often do a 180 when coming to shore to avoid running into the beach. I can even turn well with my bigger fins, but I find they don't release as well on a top turn. So now I use a slightly smaller fin (15.5 to 16 square inches vs 19 square inches). The fins I use are larger thruster side fins. There is really no difference turn ability between the finless bodyboards I used to ride and my twin fine boards except for the ability to side slip. I don't have to move around on the board or do any "gymnastics". The only time I have had tracking is on my board with little toe or cant on the fins. A long time ago I had a board with a good size single fin. That board seemed kind of stiff to me. Quads seem very interesting. But now that I am making my boards, I don't know if I have the skill to place quad fins correctly.

Anyway I think the idea that finned boards don't turn well is a misnomer.

The problem is either with other aspects of the board or the rider hasn't mastered that particular board yet. It always takes me a while to master every new board I get.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#65

Unread post by karuhi »

hi Thomas, looks like you have more nose rocker on this board - correct? and if so how much?
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#66

Unread post by nomastomas »

Nose rocker is the same at 2-3/8" but there is a lot of "belly" in the front third of the bottom. The belly raises the rocker out at the rail, giving the illusion that there is more rocker at the stringer (or in this case, the centerline) then what actually exists. I had this blank cut without any bottom contours in the tail. The machine's algorithm for cutting surfboards doesn't allow for abrupt changes, i.e. corners, in the bottom. I want the tail concave to be defined by an edge to encourage water release, so I'll add that when I finish-shape it. Also, I may not add the elevated wing on this board or the bevel. Still mulling that one over...tp

For all the specs, see drawing below.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#67

Unread post by krusher74 »

Very cool. 8-)

I want to get my next board machine cut, but i need to translate the board into a akushaper file.

Been trying to see if 3D scanning is a cost effective process anywhere in the UK.

Any one good on the 3D cad stuff from measurements? :?

We should get a tread going with akushaper files to compare and contrast now we have a couple of you guys with them.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#68

Unread post by nomastomas »

The typical charge to have an existing shape "scanned" is US$150, and then the shaper has to "prove" the board being scanned is their design. I've never had a shape scanned, because its cheaper to build a file from scratch. But then, I've been using Aku for over 7yrs, and I've learned how to use it through trial-and-error. Its like learning to use a planer. You can read how to use it, or watch someone else use it, but in the end, it requires substantial hands-on experience to develop proficiency. -tp
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#69

Unread post by krusher74 »

nomastomas wrote:The typical charge to have an existing shape "scanned" is US$150, and then the shaper has to "prove" the board being scanned is their design. I've never had a shape scanned, because its cheaper to build a file from scratch. But then, I've been using Aku for over 7yrs, and I've learned how to use it through trial-and-error. Its like learning to use a planer. You can read how to use it, or watch someone else use it, but in the end, it requires substantial hands-on experience to develop proficiency. -tp
I can't find a shaping machine in the UK that has the scanning attachment and have downloaded AKU, but as you say to just sit there and model my board first go is far beyond my possibility's. :(
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#70

Unread post by nomastomas »

...and, you have to pay a licensing fee if you want to save your files, and more to have access to some of the other cool features. It was free for the first 6 yrs that I used it. There are some tutorial vids on YouTube and the Aku site. Google "Aku tutorial". Shape3D Lite and BoardCAD are two other choices. Both are free.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#71

Unread post by karuhi »

Hi guys, I'd suggest having a play on it. Thomas is right there is a heap of online tutorials out there. with aku you have the ability to import photos of your plan shape and rocker of a board and then play with it. i don't know if the others have this ability or not. I'm not saying everything i play with on aku comes out good but its a fun way of doing things and I'm pretty sure my aku shape comes out better - and more symmetrical than when i slash away with the planer and sandpaper - ugly. some guys never get it - (cad designing) but i think as a carpenter i can visualize something in 2d into 3d, where some people can't. have a go
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#72

Unread post by krusher74 »

karuhi wrote:Hi guys, I'd suggest having a play on it. Thomas is right there is a heap of online tutorials out there. with aku you have the ability to import photos of your plan shape and rocker of a board and then play with it. i don't know if the others have this ability or not. I'm not saying everything i play with on aku comes out good but its a fun way of doing things and I'm pretty sure my aku shape comes out better - and more symmetrical than when i slash away with the planer and sandpaper - ugly. some guys never get it - (cad designing) but i think as a carpenter i can visualize something in 2d into 3d, where some people can't. have a go
I will have a go again :D
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#73

Unread post by Daryl D »

I believe I've purchased the first Gen 2 from Thomas. I'm from a stand up background, but with age, my knees deteriorated to the point of replacement. That resulted in loss of flexibility and effective pop up. I was on the verge of no surfing until I tried a wood finless paipo The thrill was back! So, I've surfed them for two years now with my main complaint being quick turns. I'd also been curious about what a foam - fiberglass paipo would be like. So, I looked for shapers who rode them as well as shaped them and had good technical understanding of what he was doing. That is Thomas. We had some really interesting conversations and was very close to being on the same page I was on. So, we came up with a design and I bought.

Got it a couple of weeks ago, but lousy surf kept me out of the water. Well, yesterday, I caught a break and got out while there was swell and no wind. Surfed South Beach in Crescent City, CA. Surf was about stomach to head high, OK shape, with a couple of really nice hollow sets. I had to make a couple of adjustments to my take off and I was off and running. My immediate impression was the lack of slip and smooth ride. At first, I thought the board was slow, but made a couple of reshapes and realized the board was so stable there wasn't as much going on as finless and the speed is there. That's what I was looking for. It changes direction without effort, just goes where pointed. Because it was beach break, there weren't long sections to move around on the wave much, but overall, for what I was doing, no issues. I used the same Bonzor fins Thomas did. That was a point we both agreed on from the start. I put the big fin forward, his suggestion, different from his first ride, which may have helped the turns.

Bottom line is the board did everything I wanted. It paddles easier than my woodies, duck dives easily, and is almost too buoyant. My board is 2" longer than Thomas'
and I think 1/8" thicker with a broader nose. Now, I weigh 230#, 45# more than Thomas, and I believe his board would work well for me. Remember, a wood paipo has no buoyancy compared to foam - glass construction and it's my opinion that once on plane, the buoyancy factor diminishes any way. The EPS makes it even more buoyant. Because I've had EPS - epoxy surf boards, the construction is good with me and it's tough. The biggest mistake people make is they use poly sizing for EPS and get the much talked about corkiness, my opinion. At my request, my board is made from a short board blank, with a stringer. I didn't notice any flex in the nose and mine's pretty thin. Board weighs 6#.

One of my pleasures in dealing with experienced shapers is generally quality of workmanship. This board has it in spades. All contours are smooth and consistent side to side. Ray Lucke, the glasser did my last stand up board and his work is amazing. He is the glasser Thomas uses and had a lot to do with my decision to use Thomas. Finally, because Thomas wants to get the rider what he wants, he's open to discussion and ideas. I think he can pretty much get the client the board he needs and wants. He's a great guy to work with.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#74

Unread post by soulglider »

cool. glad youre stoked! heres a paipo i made 4 years ago and is a freak...absolutely shreds! made from 3/8 birch ply from home depot, 24x48 probably 10-15 coats of shellac by now. started out without the wings. i was on a week long surf trip at my favorite shark infested waters and this is the only board i brought. it didnt have the wings then. after surfing the shipt out of it on the first day i noticed a lot of side slipping, it was fun but i like a board that listens. i decided to drive to the nearest town 35 minutes away to the brand new biggest home depot i ever saw with only about 5 people in it..hahaha. any way, i bought a key hole saw sand paper and a can of shellac. hacked out the wings and wha! La! instant posi-traction.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#75

Unread post by Daryl D »

Part of the fun for me is the characteristics of different surf craft. Honestly that was the motivation for looking at the foam - fiberglass paipo. I was the same way on stand up boards as well, always a garage full. Since prone riding is what I got, I've looked at a couple different variants of wood paipo, the T-belly, and a surf mat.
There are distinct design differences between the two woodies and distinct riding characteristics. The T-belly is different yet, and with one session on it, still know little about it. The surf mat is in a world of it's own and I'm not really at home on it. I've ridden a couple of sponge boards as well, but not for me, yet. Too much to learn on the others. Point being, each board is it's own board and needs to be accepted as such. The fun comes from learning about them and taking advantage of what it does best. Best part is there's nothing like the drop and turn. Finding ways to get it done is what it's about and that's what's cool about this forum.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#76

Unread post by krusher74 »

soulglider wrote:cool. glad youre stoked! heres a paipo i made 4 years ago and is a freak...absolutely shreds! made from 3/8 birch ply from home depot, 24x48 probably 10-15 coats of shellac by now. started out without the wings. i was on a week long surf trip at my favorite shark infested waters and this is the only board i brought. it didnt have the wings then. after surfing the shipt out of it on the first day i noticed a lot of side slipping, it was fun but i like a board that listens. i decided to drive to the nearest town 35 minutes away to the brand new biggest home depot i ever saw with only about 5 people in it..hahaha. any way, i bought a key hole saw sand paper and a can of shellac. hacked out the wings and wha! La! instant posi-traction.
I thought wings help water break from the surface and make a board looser? :?
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#77

Unread post by nomastomas »

Wings or "bumps" are a way of quickly narrowing a wide tail. While turning, a wide tail exposes more rail to the wave face than a narrow tail. This exposure creates resistance to turning. Reducing the tail width, or "pulling in" the tail reduces resistance to turning by reducing the amount of rail exposed to the wave face. In the over-simplified drawing below, the view is from above the belly board looking down. The grey area is the rail penetrating the wave face. The solid line is the original outline or plan shape, and the dashed-line is the outline after adding a wing. Notice how the amount of rail exposed to the wave face is reduced. (Note: Wing purist would say that wings "add" width to the outline, not the other way around.)

The elevated-wing or E-wing is a modification of a standard wing feature that adds increased rocker to the rail, which shortens the turning radius. The G2 has elevated wings at the rail, but the wing terminates at the tailblock. I thought the rail line was already short enough, and may eliminate this feature altogether on next iteration.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#78

Unread post by jbw4600 »

Daryl send us some photos of your board. Here is my Tbelly.
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#79

Unread post by soulglider »

kush, make a 1/2 ply paipo 48x24. ride it. then make one with wings (or cut the first one up) and ride IT. i have left theory and mainstream surfboard shaping alone (after having 15 boards made in a couple of years) and tried stuff for myself. lying down on a board is a lot different than having weight in 2 spots of a board at a time. pivot points, the ability to weight and unweight, turning radius' etc are all different and i dont surf prone throwing myself around like i've seen the best bodyboarders. and, all i know is, a lot of what was shaped for me using modern shaper knowledge and theory didnt always produce what we (the shaper and I) hoped would work. and believe me, i was very specific, coming from a background of 40 years of kneeboarding, i wanted to be able to surf paipos and bellyboards the way i was able to surf kneeboards. kinda like you and boogie boards. i dont pretend to be an authority on hydrocraft technology i just know what works for me. ask Rod, he'll tell you, there are many different ways to go about this cray cray dealeo called paipo, no bellyboard board, no paipo....!
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Re: T-Belly Generation 2

#80

Unread post by krusher74 »

This covers your pozi-traction, but I don't understand the hydrodynamics of how it "holds in" :?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnpkMzWukck
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