T-Belly Gen 4x

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
Sparx45
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#11

Unread post by Sparx45 »

I love this thread...really interesting to see the evolution and thought behind it all...I just finished shaping a "rabbits foot" style finless and had similar thoughts about rails and concaves which gave me a real headache thinking about "correctness".... ended up with pinched chines in areas and some pretty radical concaves and transition areas on the hull.

Made a few mistakes i'm sure but the thing I learned most about all this is that building these smaller craft (as with the bigger stuff) is a serious learning process which is not mastered easily or without some very hard work indeed....It's a journey for sure.....love it though !!

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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#12

Unread post by nomastomas »

I finally had a chance to take out the TBG4x, and to put it simply, I wouldn’t change a thing. Conditions were a peaky combo swell, running 3’-4’on a rising tide at my local point. The type of wave that stays soft, until the last second when it suddenly jacks up. Not the best conditions for my new 9-6 noserider, on which I started the session, but pure fun for the T-Belly. So, back to the truck to switch out boards. On the way I ran into two guys from the shop who had been shortboarding. Both complained about the “crappy conditions” and low wave-counts. I just smiled, and headed back to the water with fins and the G4.

The length at 48” is just right for me at 5’10”. I can comfortably place my hands and forearms on the deck while kick paddling. If I need/want to execute a more powerful kick, I slide off the tail about 3”. This frees my legs for a full length kick stroke. Pressing down on the nose a little helps to keep the board in trim position. The extra length really shows its value once in the wave. With the tailblock now about mid-thigh, it’s much easier to keep thighs and knees out of the water, minimizing drag. A few times, I forgot I was on a longer board, and pulled myself too far forward with predictable results; an impromptu duck dive :o

After I sold my personal G3, I was without a belly board for over almost 6weeks (yes, shapers have to wait for new boards, too). This forced me to go back to my old Morey Mach 7-7. This was a good opportunity to re-acquaint myself with finless, wide-point forward prone craft. I was reminded how much the forward rail is used for control on those boards. With the G4 and similar finned, wide-point back shapes, the focus is on using the rail fins and the rear rail for control. Also, I find that there is little need to grab the opposite rail for leverage to keep the rail engaged with the wave face. When I lengthened the G4, I also moved the widepoint and the fin cluster forward 3”, keeping the pivot point close to the rider’s hips. I found the G4 to have even better control and turning response than the G3. But most apparent performance-wise, was the effectiveness of the dual open concave bottom. The board seemed to leap out of turns.

Since I kept the same volume, and volume distribution, I found duck-diving to be un-changed. A narrow, thin nose is key , in my book. Also, I didn’t notice a significant increase in speed, but then the conditions did not allow for long, speed runs. So, overall I would say that most of the performance improvements noted were in turning response, particularly in ease of turning. The G4 has a nice, flowing feel,loose and smooth. Although, it can still turn on a dime. To illustrate, I paddled into one wave, and after my first turn of the top, I spotted a longborder about 15’ away paddling for the wave I was already on. As I rapidly approached, I could see that he was focused on catching the wave, and hadn’t seen me (giving benefit of the doubt here). As he was just pushing himself up to a standing position, he glanced to his left and suddenly we came eye-to-eye. Seeing me rapidly approaching, he clumsily sat up, pulling out of the wave as I cranked a cutback throwing spray in his direction. Smiling to myself, I continued on my merry way. Throwing spray is fun :twisted:
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#13

Unread post by nomastomas »

Here's the latest TBG4. This one is for a rider 6-2/220. Although I recommended a 50" length, this rider was reluctant to go over 49" (having never ridden a TBG4). Volume is 23L. This board is also a twin, so it is a good model for how I locate twin fin set-ups.
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The nose of the TBG4 gets narrower as the length increases in order to maintain a good curve in the outline. While there are no major changes in the design, subtle refinements can be seen in the tail, where I've thinned the foill. The rail shape progresses from an up-rail in the nose to a down-rail in the tail. A tucked edge appears about mid-way down, with just a slight still seen in the rail at the tailblock. The rear view shows clearly how the concave changes the rail shape.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#14

Unread post by Uncle Grumpy »

Very nice.
I'd like to try one like that some time.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#15

Unread post by nomastomas »

Its been almost a year since I built the first TBG4, and its still my goto prone-board in waves up to 6'. I've built about a dozen of these in that time, and some have gone to early adopters of the G2 and G3 like SJB. Here he is recently enjoying the warm water of Mexico on his G4.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#16

Unread post by krusher74 »

nomastomas wrote:Its been almost a year since I built the first TBG4, and its still my goto prone-board in waves up to 6'. I've built about a dozen of these in that time, and some have gone to early adopters of the G2 and G3 like SJB. Here he is recently enjoying the warm water of Mexico on his G4.
Unless i'm seeing it wrong he looks to have inside hand on the rail and outside on the nose :? , looks like it working though :D
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#17

Unread post by nomastomas »

To many California right-point waves...
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#18

Unread post by SJB »

Probably....might also have something to do with my being left handed and stand up goofy foot. :idea: Color me upside down and out of the box.....but it does seem to work fine. 8-)
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#19

Unread post by nomastomas »

Beautiful wave, though...I'm jealous1
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#20

Unread post by nomastomas »

It had to happen sooner or later...the first carbon fiber TBG4 is headed to Oregon. This one was also fitted with a vent plug (like the Manta). The black Futures boxes were a no brainer...
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#21

Unread post by SJB »

Stealth bomber. A beauty. Price? Also interested in your analysis carbon fiber vs epoxy.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#22

Unread post by nomastomas »

Carbon fiber cloth is about 5X the cost of E-cloth, but with that said, it only adds about $25 to the cost of a TBG4 (depending upon length, of course). Like many things, labor is the tall pole in the tent for glassing cost. CF is lighter and definitely more durable than regular e-cloth. Those Aramid fibers are tough. Laps have to be trimmed as soon as the epoxy starts to gel, or a razor won't cut it. Very stiff, although all the TBG4 are stiff (meaning no discernable flex) which I believe is one of the reasons they are so fast. My next G4 will be CF...maybe just on the rails...
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#23

Unread post by SJB »

Hmmm.....so am to understand that CF makes for a more "ding proof" board? Are there any downsides to CF?
I guess what I am trying to get to....at only a $25 up charge.....is there any downside to going CF?
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#24

Unread post by nomastomas »

Well, I've only surfed my Manta on head-high or bigger days, when crowds aren't an issue. So, I don't know how it (carbon fiber) will hold up to the typical rail-banging that occurs at a crowded break (haven't lost I on the rocks yet either!).
as for downsides, it is black, which may not be your favorite color.Some guys prefer a different color than black, which would call for painting over the hot-coat. My glasser does that all the time with SUPs, but it adds cost ($25 a side) on a TBG4. And of course, there are those who are convinced that flex is essential for "good" performance in a prone-board, so CF would be of no interest to them. Likewise if a board with some heft to it is preferred, the CF wouldn't fit in that category. Bu, I think those are pretty much the downsides.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#25

Unread post by krusher74 »

This isnt directed at your use of CF

But I find many people these days seem to think CF is the magic fix all material, when for many applications its awful.

Many of the bit/strips of CF used on many stand up boards these days the usage is all gimmick.

I think years back they made hollow CF surfboards which never took hold.

I'm trying epoxy over PU on my latest board to see how that feels/holds up. :?
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#26

Unread post by nomastomas »

All of the SUPs my glasser builds are either CF deck and rails, or all CF. This is the standard for hand-laminated SUPs in California. They are frequently painted so that the CF is only visible on the rails. One exception are the down-wind racing SUPs being glassed for Jeff Clark, noted Maverick's pioneer. Jeff's SUP blanks are stringerless with CF on the rails for (1) protection against paddle strikes and (2) to add some strength to the 1.5PCF EPS. The flexiness of a 14' x 30" x 4.74" 1.5PCF EPS blank that is seen when on the glassing racks goes away almost completely as soon as the resin kicks. But your point is well taken. I once heard a well-known shaper remark, when asked about the function of the small carbon fiber rail patches on his shortboards reply, "I'm not sure, but I can't sell them without it."
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#27

Unread post by Daryl D »

I've worked with carbon fiber products for years in racing. It's tough, it's stiff, it's light, and it's pretty affordable. For years, I "didn't like" EPS epoxy stand up boards, too corky. My last stand up was a PU epoxy and I loved it. I still have an EPS epoxy long board for those small days! Legs were giving out and moved to wooden paipos. I really wanted a board that surfed rather than slide so I ended up with a T-Belly 2, EPS epoxy. too corky, but it would turn on a dime. The more I've surfed it over the last couple of years, the better I like it. Point being light and floaty isn't really bad and can be real good as you learn to deal with it. Also, I kind of like stiff. My next board is going to be CF and Thomas will shape it. Still deciding fins or not. What I expect from my CF experience is a tough board, not unrealistically so, but still more ding resistant, light, stiff and really cool looking, all for $25! Best yet, I still have the wood boards and surf them regularly as well. It's truly about the surf.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#28

Unread post by krusher74 »

Daryl D wrote:I've worked with carbon fiber products for years in racing. It's tough, it's stiff, it's light, and it's pretty affordable. For years, I "didn't like" EPS epoxy stand up boards, too corky. My last stand up was a PU epoxy and I loved it. I still have an EPS epoxy long board for those small days! Legs were giving out and moved to wooden paipos. I really wanted a board that surfed rather than slide so I ended up with a T-Belly 2, EPS epoxy. too corky, but it would turn on a dime. The more I've surfed it over the last couple of years, the better I like it. Point being light and floaty isn't really bad and can be real good as you learn to deal with it. Also, I kind of like stiff. My next board is going to be CF and Thomas will shape it. Still deciding fins or not. What I expect from my CF experience is a tough board, not unrealistically so, but still more ding resistant, light, stiff and really cool looking, all for $25! Best yet, I still have the wood boards and surf them regularly as well. It's truly about the surf.
I have tried a couple of EPS epoxy boards and did not like them, but i think its down to there spring, they cant be "corky" as a 25L pu and 25L eps will float the same. I think the stringer/brittle poly glass stops the spring.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#29

Unread post by nomastomas »

krusher74 wrote:
Daryl D wrote:they cant be "corky" as a 25L pu and 25L eps will float the same.
Only if the PU foam and the EPS foam are the same density. Standard "Blue" density PU foam (US Blanks) is about 2.5-2.6PCF (pounds per cubic foot), with "Red" desnity 5%-7% lighter. Most surfboards using Marko Foam EPS blanks are 1.5PCF to 1.9PCF (aka "2lb"). making them liter-for-liter more buoyant. Similarly a liter of lead is less buoyant than a liter of cork. Bottomline, less dense more buoyant at any given volume.
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Re: T-Belly Gen 4x

#30

Unread post by Cuttlefish »

I am a fan of cf having owned a few cf boards from DVS and would like to know what dims you'd shape a board in cf with me being 6'1" and 85kgs? I was 92-95kgs but lost weight and also enthusiasm for surfing in general so need a board to explore some less ridden places.
I sold my trusty paipo as it had far too much foam for me and would like another board.
Could you pm with price and a shipping price to Sunshine coast (or Gold coast) thanks?
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