Finless T-Belly

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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rodndtube
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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by rodndtube » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:01 am

It's complicated ;)
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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by Daryl D » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:52 pm

OK, I'll chime in. I have the sister FX. I think Thomas built his because I was talking to him about doing a finless board. Some background I'm a old guy who had to give up stand up because of loss of function after two knee replacements. I sold everything and was about to shoot myself when I discovered piapos. Over the last few years I've owned and ridden a Xylem, a couple of other wood boards from a couple of makers, and two or three home builds. I loved them and had a ball learning each board's characteristics in the environment where I surf. I learned to deal with the lack of buoyancy of the wood boards. I'm a big guy and most piapo guys weren't sure how to deal with that. The one thing I missed was the control with a finned board. I stumbled on to Thomas and I knew his glasser which meant to he's probably all right. I also found we were theoretically on the same page in most things. I ended up buying a G2 with lots of options. That took me to the G4, then a displacement hull board done by Thomas. I wanted him to do it because he understands what and why he does what he does and the design theory, which held true even with the hull board which may have appeared a bit out of his design wheel house. Turns out it's a beautiful board. I've become attached to the foam fiberglass boards and wanted a finless one, so who better than Thomas to shape it? It works well. The one thing I've discovered is the finned boards, particularly the G5 I've just ridden has more speed. I also noticed the FX has a great deal of turbulence at the back. I think the four finned boards, with a well designed bottom, direct the water flow more efficiently, hence more speed. Also, the water exiting the channels on the FX may even make it worse. I'm curious about a G5 without fins. But, back to the FX, over all it works as I expected and is a great fun for a finless board. Also, props to Thomas. He's pretty smart and great craftsman.

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by krusher74 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:42 am

Daryl D wrote:OK, I'll chime in. I have the sister FX. I think Thomas built his because I was talking to him about doing a finless board. Some background I'm a old guy who had to give up stand up because of loss of function after two knee replacements. I sold everything and was about to shoot myself when I discovered piapos. Over the last few years I've owned and ridden a Xylem, a couple of other wood boards from a couple of makers, and two or three home builds. I loved them and had a ball learning each board's characteristics in the environment where I surf. I learned to deal with the lack of buoyancy of the wood boards. I'm a big guy and most piapo guys weren't sure how to deal with that. The one thing I missed was the control with a finned board. I stumbled on to Thomas and I knew his glasser which meant to he's probably all right. I also found we were theoretically on the same page in most things. I ended up buying a G2 with lots of options. That took me to the G4, then a displacement hull board done by Thomas. I wanted him to do it because he understands what and why he does what he does and the design theory, which held true even with the hull board which may have appeared a bit out of his design wheel house. Turns out it's a beautiful board. I've become attached to the foam fiberglass boards and wanted a finless one, so who better than Thomas to shape it? It works well. The one thing I've discovered is the finned boards, particularly the G5 I've just ridden has more speed. I also noticed the FX has a great deal of turbulence at the back. I think the four finned boards, with a well designed bottom, direct the water flow more efficiently, hence more speed. Also, the water exiting the channels on the FX may even make it worse. I'm curious about a G5 without fins. But, back to the FX, over all it works as I expected and is a great fun for a finless board. Also, props to Thomas. He's pretty smart and great craftsman.
How does the "great deal of turbulence" feel? tail of the board feels rough and bouncy, chattery?

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by Daryl D » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:43 am

Feel it on the legs where the board ends. Having spent the last almost 50 years of life in the racing industry, I, in my mind called it turbulence and attributed it to the fast moving water under the board, accelerated by the channels hitting a low pressure area behind the board creating a swirling turbulence which in race cars becomes drag. Haven't really noticed it in my other boards and frankly haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about it, it is what it is, and most importantly, it's still fun. Do it again, not likely, but if I do, it'll be a more conventional with two channels and attention paid to separating the water exiting under the board at the tail from the tail. This wasn't noticeable on my wood boards because they are much thinner. The design has merit with room for improvement. I enjoy a finless ride at times and that's the reason for the board. I, like Thomas, was hoping for a bit more stick, but it's finless! You might ask how I know the finned is faster. I was surfing with my old guy buddy, he on his G5, me on finless. He could pretty much run me down any time. I think for two basic reasons, he could hold the board in the stronger part of the wave, and bottom design including fins. Just my thoughts.

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by krusher74 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:23 pm

Daryl D wrote:Feel it on the legs where the board ends. Having spent the last almost 50 years of life in the racing industry, I, in my mind called it turbulence and attributed it to the fast moving water under the board, accelerated by the channels hitting a low pressure area behind the board creating a swirling turbulence which in race cars becomes drag. Haven't really noticed it in my other boards and frankly haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about it, it is what it is, and most importantly, it's still fun. Do it again, not likely, but if I do, it'll be a more conventional with two channels and attention paid to separating the water exiting under the board at the tail from the tail. This wasn't noticeable on my wood boards because they are much thinner. The design has merit with room for improvement. I enjoy a finless ride at times and that's the reason for the board. I, like Thomas, was hoping for a bit more stick, but it's finless! You might ask how I know the finned is faster. I was surfing with my old guy buddy, he on his G5, me on finless. He could pretty much run me down any time. I think for two basic reasons, he could hold the board in the stronger part of the wave, and bottom design including fins. Just my thoughts.
Thanks for the explanation. Thomas CAD modeled my original finless handshaped board which has been beaten to death :o , the machine copy of it has turned out to surf just as well as the original it a simple shape which on the next board I was going to add more channels to for extra grip for better direction changed, but now i feel that may be a bad idea :? but you never know till you try I guess :lol: I'm happy for anybody to use the cut file if they want to try finless. I am sure thought hat thomas's finless design is sound and am hoping to try it if i get to california before its gone!

if you like cars have you been watching our festival of speed? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67IvQwZZLVU

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by Daryl D » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:10 pm

I would not say this design is without merit. It is decent and has really cool rail design. Frankly, design is a learning platform for the next build. I think Thomas did a great job for a one off. If you get to CA and want to give the board a ride, even though I'm in Oregon, I'll try to arrange it.

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by bgreen » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:48 pm

Daryl,

It's good to hear BBs kept you interested in life and surfing.
Daryl D wrote:Feel it on the legs where the board ends. Having spent the last almost 50 years of life in the racing industry, I, in my mind called it turbulence and attributed it to the fast moving water under the board, accelerated by the channels hitting a low pressure area behind the board creating a swirling turbulence which in race cars becomes drag. Haven't really noticed it in my other boards and frankly haven't spent a whole lot of time thinking about it, it is what it is, and most importantly, it's still fun. Do it again, not likely, but if I do, it'll be a more conventional with two channels and attention paid to separating the water exiting under the board at the tail from the tail. This wasn't noticeable on my wood boards because they are much thinner. The design has merit with room for improvement. I enjoy a finless ride at times and that's the reason for the board. I, like Thomas, was hoping for a bit more stick, but it's finless! You might ask how I know the finned is faster. I was surfing with my old guy buddy, he on his G5, me on finless. He could pretty much run me down any time. I think for two basic reasons, he could hold the board in the stronger part of the wave, and bottom design including fins. Just my thoughts.
I don't believe it is as simple as finned is faster. The fastest board that I've ever ridden is the fastest whether I ride it with fins or finless. All my boards have removable fins so I usually start riding a board finless, get to know it and then try it with fins to see what difference there is. My fastest board is flat bottomed and flies from the point of getting into a wave and goes faster the more power there is. It handles steep drops and faces but it isn't a great tube rider.
MM2_profile.jpg
My current board isn't as fast, but has more stability in the tube. The tail view of my current board is below. I've only ever ridden it finless:
MM7-TailViewb.jpg
I've surfed with Krusher a couple of times. We swapped boards one day in junk surf. I think we both agreed that we rode really different boards.

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by nomastomas » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:06 pm

The "waggle" is what I call it, and I experienced it the most when I would duck dive. Very pronounced and unsettling, almost enough to pull the board from my grip. Very odd; no explanation for it. Never felt it when riding, though.

Sorry Keith, I've already sold the FX to BellyRider, but intend to add some FCS plugs on the rear corners before giving it to him. Maybe I'll get a chance to ride it finned. Daryl would be your best shot.

I really enjoy working with customers like Daryl. It's really fun to do "what-if-we-did-something-like-this?" exercises, especially with someone who has a lot of experience riding prone. And, we pretty much talk the same language regarding design and prone boards, so that's a big plus.

Drag is not an issue if it ultimately leads to greater speed or more responsiveness. Your fins have to earned their keep. The "lift" produced by asymmetrically-foiled fins is horizontal, pulling the rail slightly forward and into the wave face. I use asym-foiled fins in both front and rear quad positions, with slightly less toe-in on the rears than the front, when both fins are relatively close to the rail. The fins mimic a twin-fin set-up in this position. The front fins clean-up the flow around the rear fins, and a four-fin set-up seems to be more efficient (more hold,with less drag) than two larger twin-fins. Sometimes I set the rear fins half-way between rail and centerline, using symmetrically foiled fins. This has the effect of a center fin and of smoothing-out rail to rail transitions. You get less drift and more predictability in turns. A nice quality in OH waves, where control trumps freedom from drag. I tell my riders that if the board feels like you're dragging an anchor, you have too much fin area for the wave conditions. On the other hand, if you feel like the tail is slipping, even a couple of inches or so, you don't have enough fin area. Every rider needs to find what fin combinations works for their body weight and the wave conditions they are surfing.
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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by nomastomas » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:21 pm

I fixed the FX....
FX_finned_Web.JPG
FX_finned_Web.JPG (128.89 KiB) Viewed 1046 times
Rides more like the G5 now, just not as fast.
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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by krusher74 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:41 pm

:?

CHRISPI
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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by CHRISPI » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:51 pm

For god sakes fly your fin not drag your fin

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by nomastomas » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:26 pm

Yeah, I know...I should get some red fins :lol:
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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by bgreen » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:32 am

Nomas,

It's always interesting trying the same design with and without fins.

If you dip your feet in the finless world again, I'd try a board without channels. John Galera's boards have a single channel but they are a very different design.

Bob

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by belly rider » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:15 am

So Thomas did you have a chance to try out my new board with fins?? now that they are installed??
How does it preform??
I'm ready and anxious to get there and try out the new "toy"
its all about the ride

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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by asier esnal » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:38 am

In August I have to work hard and I do not have time to do bricolages. but seeing this post, I'm trying to make a paipo without ends, if you need keel would be vector system, on the rail ahead

for this design I have joined ideas from all over with influences from paipos, alaias ..... I am not going to name anyone since it is a very long list. I have not invented anything.

I think it can be a good combination. the rail has a straight side in the tail, with oversized measure, this I have designed it like this, to give more grip in that rail area and give more power to the tail horns. these horns is an over dimension of the tails. subtract some twists with skid but I do not want the sensation of skating on the water


what do you think?
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Re: Finless T-Belly

Unread post by asier esnal » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 am

I am studying the ways of refining, and I really like the work of gus acosta, I see it very interesting, I think that tail shape would be interesting for my design of paipo, I have made a few designs but I do not finish deciding what can be the most compensated of a depth of 2.5 to 4. depends on this will change the total length of the paipo
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