Which paipo for hollow waves ?

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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bgreen
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Tue May 03, 2016 8:09 am

"rodndtube wrote:

Makes me wonder why I bother so much with those ding prone poly foam/glass boards!"

Reminds me of one of my favourite quotes. I was surfing with a mate out at Bells Beach on a wood finless board, my mate had come in and overheard a carpark conversation. One guy asked his mate, "Did you see the lid on a piece of wood?"

This was before Tom Wegener popularized alaias. I've never been called a lid before.

Who was the source of the quote, "The best surfer is the one having them most fun"?

Jack Johns the guy on the BB is also a pretty good bodyboard rider - interesting interview and clip at the end

http://project-o.co.uk/articles/atlanti ... jackjohns/

Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Fri May 06, 2016 4:50 pm

This has been posted before, but near the end is also some good wood footage -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RYAXrRuUuM

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by OG-AZN » Sat May 07, 2016 4:57 pm

zensuni wrote:... Fortunately, I brought another paipo with me, this one was stiff plywood, with an HPD shape. Perfect for that kind f waves, very fast, it provided me the longest rides I have ever had, not to mention the crazy drifting/flying feeling. I was finally able to do the superman stand :) I just bought a gopro camera so next time I'll come with a video.
One of the best posts I've seen on here in awhile. Based on Zensuni's post above and his vids, he's clearly got the fundamentals down. Keep going, it only gets better and more fun from here!

nomastomas wrote:Kicking your ass off while pushing an piece of wood around the lineup, and then when you finally do catch a wave, trimming in a straight line, hoping you don't slide down the face or spin out just isn't what I'd call fun. But, then that's just me...Obviously, there are others, like Grumpy, who would strongly disagree. For them it would seem, riding wooden paipos is the epitome of the surfing experience. That's cool...I just don't share that view.

"BIG difference between wood and plywood", really? Big difference? There's a big difference between chambered wood or hollow wood construction, and plywood, yes. But "BIG" difference between 3/4 inch marine-ply and 3/4 inch pine...just doesn't pass the giggle test. But then, what do I know?

"Don't knock it until you've tried it" Personally, I don't need to step in front of a truck to "know" its not a good idea...but then that's just me. Life would be pretty painful if we were forced to experientially test out all of our hypotheses. That's the value of observation and intuition. But then again, I could be wrong...
^^ One of the worst!! This is the "Paipo Forum" right?? That vid from Original Surfboard Co. clearly shuts down any arguments on the lack of fun and functionality of simple ply wood paipos. But just in case anyone needs more convincing, here's a few pics of other plywood paipo riders on their hard to ride, non-functional boards who should know they're wasting their time. But I suspect they're having too much fun to realize that.

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 9111_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 7193_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 3129_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 0295_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 9562_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 5036_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 8631_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 0965_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2 ... 6515_n.mp4

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 6399_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 2136_n.jpg

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2 ... 1527_n.jpg

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by nomastomas » Sat May 07, 2016 8:28 pm

...I guess you don't agree with me, right?
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Sun May 08, 2016 3:04 am

Hello Og-Azn,

I recognise some of these photos (.e.g JL). Where did the others come from?

Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sun May 08, 2016 3:59 pm

Hi there, just an update about my paipo adventure. Finally I shaped a plywood paipo with a classic trapeze shape. It is the best compromize I found so far, I like my hpd like paipo but sometimes it is a bit too large. I know you guys advised me this shape already, but now I understand why. Yesterday I took it out for a test, the conditons were not clean, there was a lot of currents. I passed the bar, then I was caught inside a big set (what I call "big" is hollow 4 or 5 feets), that was a good chance to test the board duck diving ability. It worked very well, I wonder how I would have done that with a bodyboard. It was kind of scary though, I wear water glasses so under the water, when the wave was passing above me I could see this big dark shadow. I managed to ride one of these (the smallest one) to go back to the shore, according to my kids it was a nice ride, bigger than what I ride usually. Sometimes scare is good for motivation. Later we were caught by a rip current, fortunately a surf teacher came to us, he bring the kids back to the shore and explained me how to escape by myself (go in parralel to the shore). I managed to escape, but it was not easy. Not a great session, but at least we learned how to escape a rip current. This morning we had another session in smaller, cleaner conditions, no currents, my son took a plywood paipo, he loved it (he is a good bodyboarder), great experience. So, to sum up, I'd say that the best paipo for me is the one I can ride well in small conditions that fit to my current level. So, we are now 2 paipo enthusiastics.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by Pes78 » Sun May 08, 2016 7:40 pm

Zen good job keeping at it. You need to find what works best for you and the conditions you surf. That could be a lot of trail and error but it seems your on the right path. I had boards that were close to my regular surfboards in terms of width and thickness. I then tried one of Soulglider's boards and it changed my whole thought on what I needed. I'm now on thinner and narrower boards and they have been working really good. We don't have a beach break like you have except for Black's so in everyday conditions these boards have worked. My thoughts are you need planing area on these lower volume boards and then you have very little tail rocker. Now your on a different program using wood as I'm using foam which has more float. Sounds like you have found a good formula so now after months of riding this board you can make improvements for the next one. Post up a picture if you can.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Mon May 09, 2016 5:20 am

Zensuni,

Learning about rips etc saves lives but they are also your friend in trying to make it out. Research has found a lot of people with little surf experience actually head for the rip, because they see less breaking waves and assume it is safer. Being able to read ocean conditions will make as much difference as the thickness of your board etc.

The wave size people experience fear in varies enormously - the guys who surf really big waves still feel fear, but learn to recognise it, control it and become motivated by it. Build up to a size that is a bit beyond your comfort zone.

Some more fun wood footage:

http://www.surfertoday.com/bodyboarding ... ft-handers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNbIg3LHms


Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Mon May 09, 2016 8:02 am

Here is the board I use :
The width is 40cm (17.8 inches) at the nose and 50cm (20 inches) at the tail, the height is 110cm (3.3 feets). I am 5.5 feets.
newpaipo.jpg
I didn't know how to attach the leach, so I just made a hole on the bottom of the board, it does the job.
I really like this shape, the board takes off easily and the "wings" on the bottom help to grip the wave.
Last edited by zensuni on Mon May 09, 2016 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by nomastomas » Mon May 09, 2016 10:09 am

Nice work! I like how you added a little nose rocker with the steam iron and the clever leash-loop solution. I wonder how long that bend lasts or if it straightens-out over time? Some people (certainly not anyone on this forum :D ) think nose rocker is only good for avoiding pearling. It also helps to initiate turns when the board is rolled over on its rail. There's a major rip (more like a river running parallel to shore) at my home break when its big, with the added bonus of an inadvertent pier-shooting experience if you're not paying attention. Its not unusual to see people drift 200-300 yds while trying to paddle out straight. Key is to walk up the beach 100yd or so and paddle out diagonally, almost parallel to the shore, using the current instead of fighting it. If you surf near a jetty or other similar structure, there's usually a rip running away from the beach right next to it, offering a free ride to the outside.
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Mon May 09, 2016 10:55 am

Nomastomas, thanks, I didn't bend the nose of this board (on the video with the stream iron it is another board), but I did sand the nose a little bit. The steam iron trick works (the tuff part being explaining to my wife why I was ironing a wood plank), but I have read on this forum that it would add extra drag. Indeed, during my latest rides with this rockerless board I tried to push the inside bottom rail to have it biting the wave, when I felt like I did it well, the flat nose was not a problem, as the board position wasn't completely flat. Anyway, since I ride small waves, it probably doesn't make a big difference. Regarding the wood vs fiberglass debate, I wonder how a board with the same shape / tickness made of foam/fiberglass would work. No concave, finless, rounded nose, sharp rails, easy to duck dive, what do you think ? Maybe one day I'll buy some polystirene and resine and try to make one. It might be less dangerous for other riders in crowded peacks.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by nomastomas » Mon May 09, 2016 11:32 am

Z...you make a good point when you say "the flat nose was not a problem, as the board position wasn't completely flat". Unlike stand-up surfcraft, prone boards carry the bulk of the rider's weight in the rear half of the board, sinking the tail and raising the nose. Always something to consider when discussing nose rocker on p-boards. And while its true that too much nose rocker or too abrupt of a change in the bottom curve, can and does cause form drag, that doesn't mean that nose rocker per se is necessarily a bad thing. A poorly executed concept performs poorly. A gradual, continuous curve in the nose helps to overcome wave-chop, avoid pearling and as I mentioned above, allows for a tighter turning radius when carving turns on rail (not pivot turns, which are totally different). If done correctly, there is minimal form drag. You are probably beginning to learn that surfcraft design features have trade-offs, and this is a classic example. In general, flat bottoms are faster, but stiffer, while rockered bottoms turn easier but are relatively slower. Soulglider's earlier comment about adding curve to your outline is another example. Parallel rails (which is what your shape has) tend to be fast but stiff. Turning (not trimming) requires that you sink the tail to raise the rail out of the water. This is a pivot turn. Curve in the outline minimizes the length of rail in contact with the face at any given time, making carving turns more possible. I know, a lot to swallow...
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by rodndtube » Mon May 09, 2016 12:47 pm

Having been schooled on the ways of surfing in the pre-leash era and along a coast without anything resembling life guards or rescue services (early days in west coast of Puerto Rico although very few beaches there have life guard services), we learned to be careful students of the currents and safe places to paddle out and to make land fall (with or without the board). This meant having an understanding of the coastal area (the beach and the waters a good distance out) at least a quarter mile up and down the beach from the surf break, even further for larger surf days. A lot of things a moving around when the surf and/or winds increase or there is a large tidal change... rips, currents, eddies, etc.

Nice looking board! Josh Klein, the Xylem Surfboards guy, makes a small hole a couple of inches from the nose and knots the end of the "leash cord" after slipping it through the cord hole and fastens the other end of the leach to his wrist or biceps.

P.S. Please edit your post and add the dimensions where it says "Here is the board I use :". So many boards and the pictures can deceive!
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Mon May 09, 2016 4:18 pm

There was a thread here, I'm pretty sure ago about leashes on wood boards. There certainly was one on Swaylocks. What I've done is when building the board, is use a brad bit, to drill a hole half-way through the bottom. I then fill that hole with a section of pre-cut hardwood that is flush with the bottom. A hole can be drilled through and countersunk a little. You then thread a leash loop through the hole and the countersunk area stops the knot in the cord sticking too far beneath the bottom of the board.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Tue May 10, 2016 3:13 am

nomastomas, thanks for these informations, indeed I have no knowledge in shaping boards, so I welcome these usefull informations. So, my board has straight rails, no rocker, so it goes fast, it allows pivot turning but not smooth carving turning. Also it doesn't like waves chops (I noticed that). Seems to be a good choice for clean offshore fast small hollow waves, isn't it ? When conditions are choppy onshore, would a board with a progressive rocker and rounded rails work better ?

rodndtube, I edited the post to include board dimensions. The pre leash era must have been an exiting period of time. I grew up near Paris, so I know more about bus schedules and shopping malls than tide schedules and rip currents :) But it is never too late to learn.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Tue May 10, 2016 9:09 am

Bob, I am intrigued by your wooden leash system, do you have a picture ?

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Tue May 10, 2016 10:35 am

Josh Klein, the Xylem Surfboards guy, makes a small hole a couple of inches from the nose and knots the end of the "leash cord" after slipping it through the cord hole and fastens the other end of the leach to his wrist or biceps.
I did this many years ago on fiberglass spoon kneeboard. Many years! Got sucked and pitched in barrel in 2X OH Mitchel's in Santa Cruz and leash wrapped around my torso w/ arms UNDER the leash (strapped down) and then around my neck. I very nearly passed out and drowned before I could extricate enough arm/hand movement to free my neck/throat from the constriction and breath again. Needless to say, I prefer me a leash w/ a bit of stretch to it that I can wrestle free of just in case the "couldn't" possibly actually does :twisted:

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by nomastomas » Tue May 10, 2016 11:46 am

zensuni wrote: When conditions are choppy onshore, would a board with a progressive rocker and rounded rails work better ?
Zen...I was referring to curve in the outline, not the actual shape of the rail. Although round, 50/50 shaped rails are more forgiving than hard-edge rails, (but in my experience, that is more applicable to rails with at least 1" or more of thickness and MAY not apply to paipos).

After recently spending 3 days negotiating the Paris Metro, it was I who felt like the beginner in the riptide. Everyone around us seemed to instinctively know which track to be on, which tunnel to take, which exit to use. Experience and observation will serve you well.
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Tue May 10, 2016 4:52 pm

zensuni wrote:Bob, I am intrigued by your wooden leash system, do you have a picture ?
I'll try to take photos on the week-end. Credit goes to Tom Wegener on the concept.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by krusher74 » Wed May 18, 2016 5:08 am

zensuni wrote:Hi there
krusher74 wrote: You might find it easier to pick up the basic skills faster on a floaty bodyboard.
I agree, it is way easier to learn on a body board, which I did (I can take reasonable waves correctly).
The reasons why I switched to wooden boards are:
- I am a terrible duck diver, plywood boards are great for that
- shaping these pieces of plywood is some kind of hobby to my curious brain, I like building them as much as I like testing them.
- I know I will never be the greatest rider of the world, I am not gonna perform insane tricks, so I don't really seek for pure performance, just speed and fun.
- every successful, well done ride on a plywood plank still amazes me, just the fact that "it worked". And sometimes it works great.
- it is very rewarding to get better, on a bodyboard it is easy to ride a wave, on a wooden board there is a learning curve.

Regarding the "longboard waves", I have to say that I got better in catching waves after several sessions, so now catching waves is no longer a big problem.
Recently, the conditions at my local spot have been smaller, mainly onshore wind, which means no tubes, and I could really appreciate the waves catching ability of my HPD like plywood board.
I still need to work on using rails as fins, but I'm getting better on that. I glued cork pads on the deck of the board, so it floats a little better than just a piece of plywood.
I let down my pine wood boards attempts, as I find them too dangerous, too heavy, I don't want my board to an hazard in the water. Plywood is a good compromise, light and strong.
I feel like the point is not to float, it is to plan, like water ski, so a thin surface works fine.
Regarding riding hollow waves, I'll make a dedicated plywood board, more narrow I guess, I think my HPD like board wouldn't be great in juicy tubes, too wide.
At the moment I don't consider to switch to a fiberglass foam board, maybe I'll build one for my kids, and to satisfy my curiosity about the shaping process.

It would be beneficial to keep surfing on the bodyboard (but I do understand where your current interest lies), learning the skill of duckdiving would make you even better at it on the wood paipo

The analogy is like when a stand up surfer starts, if they use a 9ft soft board they learn quickly, if they start on a 6ft board they struggle and progress slowly

I try to used handboards, bodyboards, foam fibre glass paipos and mats, each one help you learn differant skills, but its accelerates your basic skills if you start on the easy ones ;)

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