Can't help myself

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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rodndtube
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Re: Can't help myself

#51

Unread post by rodndtube »

I think you will have fun on a lot of waves. Nice Cove Pad.
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Re: Can't help myself

#52

Unread post by Pes78 »

Had some decent waves Thursday morning caught a head high wave and I just flew down the line for about a 100 yds. Board held a line real good. Thanks Rod the cove pads are the best.
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Re: Can't help myself

#53

Unread post by Pes78 »

So the last time I said I was taking a break from shaping I lasted 3 months. I'm thinking of shaping another board(I've lasted 8 months without shaping anything). I also like working with Tony who shaped my last board since he's not afraid of shaping things out of the box. I don't know what to do at this point because I really want to shape something that I really will be happy with. I wish I still had that single fin hull still but I put in a shop not to really sell just for storage because I didn't have room for it. Just need advice on what to do.
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Re: Can't help myself

#54

Unread post by krusher74 »

Pes78 wrote:. Just need advice on what to do.

Its a good looking board, must fly with that wide tail.


Maybe if you give us a list of what it does not do well we could throw in some ideas of what we would do to that design to make it do those things better.
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Re: Can't help myself

#55

Unread post by Pes78 »

If your talking about the hull I didn't keep it long enough to really get a feel for it. I got one wave at Steamer lane on it and I felt out of control going up and down the face which I thought was because I didn't have a big enough fin. I was running a Greenough 7" 4A was going to get a 8 or 9. That was the only wave I really remember on it. My bonzer board trying to sell that one because the nose rocker is too low in the nose. If the wave gets steep I have pull up on the nose to keep from spraying water in front of me. I don't think I've kept a board longer than a year. I think part my problem is I have so many ideas in my head that I want to try them all and sometimes try to put multiple ideas into one board. On such short boards thats hard to do and I end up messing something up with out noticing until its glassed, thats when the flaws usually show up. I think my last two I went in the shaping room telling myself to keep it simple with a completely flat bottom but that not what I end up doing of course. :lol:
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Re: Can't help myself

#56

Unread post by krusher74 »

Pes78 wrote:If your talking about the hull I didn't keep it long enough to really get a feel for it. I got one wave at Steamer lane on it and I felt out of control going up and down the face which I thought was because I didn't have a big enough fin. I was running a Greenough 7" 4A was going to get a 8 or 9. That was the only wave I really remember on it. My bonzer board trying to sell that one because the nose rocker is too low in the nose. If the wave gets steep I have pull up on the nose to keep from spraying water in front of me. I don't think I've kept a board longer than a year. I think part my problem is I have so many ideas in my head that I want to try them all and sometimes try to put multiple ideas into one board. On such short boards thats hard to do and I end up messing something up with out noticing until its glassed, thats when the flaws usually show up. I think my last two I went in the shaping room telling myself to keep it simple with a completely flat bottom but that not what I end up doing of course. :lol:
I was talking about every aspect of the board. :lol:

if your rolling the design dice every board then as you know hitting the jackpot will be long odds.

Is a fun process to keep making boards when you can afford to, but can be a bit of a kick in the balls when the first surf you feel "yep, this does not work!"

To be my usual broken record I ride finless, so when I hear "I didn't have a big enough fin" I feel that more than having a fin too small its more, your maybe not engaging the fin you have, from either it being on the wrong place on the board or you not positioned on the board to engage the fin. On every finned board I have tried i've had to be in a place on the board to engage the fin that feels the wrong place for engaging every other aspect of the board :? positioning fins is one aspect of board design i'm really happy I dont have to deal with as i feel it can probably destroy a board that otherwise very good.
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Re: Can't help myself

#57

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens »

krusher74 wrote:To be my usual broken record I ride finless, so when I hear "I didn't have a big enough fin" I feel that more than having a fin too small its more, your maybe not engaging the fin you have, from either it being on the wrong place on the board or you not positioned on the board to engage the fin. On every finned board I have tried i've had to be in a place on the board to engage the fin that feels the wrong place for engaging every other aspect of the board :? positioning fins is one aspect of board design i'm really happy I dont have to deal with as i feel it can probably destroy a board that otherwise very good.
In late 60's to mid 70's I did tons of fin experimentation on stand-up boards. And my biggest take away was that tiny changes in fin shape/area distribution, total area, and placement can generate gigantic changes in how the board performed. Statistically, the fewer variables involved, the more likely you are to hit on a magic combination of them. And just the fin alone (and its placement) is huge bucket of variables.
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Re: Can't help myself

#58

Unread post by krusher74 »

GeoffreyLevens wrote:
krusher74 wrote:To be my usual broken record I ride finless, so when I hear "I didn't have a big enough fin" I feel that more than having a fin too small its more, your maybe not engaging the fin you have, from either it being on the wrong place on the board or you not positioned on the board to engage the fin. On every finned board I have tried i've had to be in a place on the board to engage the fin that feels the wrong place for engaging every other aspect of the board :? positioning fins is one aspect of board design i'm really happy I dont have to deal with as i feel it can probably destroy a board that otherwise very good.
In late 60's to mid 70's I did tons of fin experimentation on stand-up boards. And my biggest take away was that tiny changes in fin shape/area distribution, total area, and placement can generate gigantic changes in how the board performed. Statistically, the fewer variables involved, the more likely you are to hit on a magic combination of them. And just the fin alone (and its placement) is huge bucket of variables.
Most definitely, i'm glad that's one aspect I don't have to deal with. ;)

the main pivot point if i am correct is under the rear foot of the stand up surfer at the rear fin , where do you think it is for a prone rider. I know knee boarders have fin further forward and some drop knee body boarders have fins very far forward.
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Re: Can't help myself

#59

Unread post by rodndtube »

And the Vektor has the board designed to position the foot over the the fin with the foot forward and the trailing foot over the trailing fin.
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Re: Can't help myself

#60

Unread post by Pes78 »

That's where I get caught up trying a couple ideas on each board. On my cork board there are a few times where I'm slip sliding around but at least I know its because I don't have the rail engaged. But once I do I'm good. I have a wood paipo on the way and it seems I have less to think about on the finless boards. Heck Roberts surfboards has a fin setup called the twonzer and I was thinking of trying that setup. But I doubt he'll give me the fin placement :lol: I think at this point I need to figure out what I'm going to do next shape another or have one shaped.
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Re: Can't help myself

#61

Unread post by rodndtube »

My boards have had removable fins for like forever, probably since the early-1980s, initially driven by surf travel (during vacation and work travels). The beauty of removable fins is not being stuck with a static fin(s) placement and types. My center fin boxes are industry standard Fins Unlimited (true, there are different fin box lengths but I usually want 4 inches of freedom). For a long time I have been riding with a 3-fin setup, but not a true thruster as the toe-in is reduced with small side bites (about 2 inches tall, but ranging from 1.75 to 2.25, foiled but a rather standard fin shape). What I vary is the placement of the center fin depending upon the wave type and size. I usually use a 4.5 inch center fin, but have ranged from 4 to 7 inches. Flexibility is key.

I've had longboarder friends that were hating on their nice boards, complaining about how it didn't turn, turned to easily, etc. By suggesting and them trying out a different fin shape and size the board went from being a dog to "the best board ever."
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Re: Can't help myself

#62

Unread post by nomastomas »

Lots of good design-related issues being brought up in this thread. Here’s my $0.02:

Every good, i.e. “workable” design is an integration of all its functional elements, e.g. outline, bottom contours, rocker, fin placement, finless, etc. It’s very “Gestalt-ish”, where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It's important to understand how each design element influences all the others, otherwise you can end up with design elements that, while individually sound, are in conflict with others. This is what I call “purposeful design”; design based upon function, not just aesthetics.

The trial-and-error approach has been the cornerstone of surfcraft design throughout time. But, successful trial-and-error development requires both organization and purposeful design. Larry Goddard’s work is the perfect example of the trial-and-error approach applied to prone-board design. His methodology is as important as his designs themselves. To help train your mind to adopt this approach, you should keep a diary of each shape, recording your rationale for the use of every design element, notes on how the design functioned in real-life conditions, and what you might do to improve the performance. This approach will save you money in the end, because you won’t waste money on designs that are doomed to less than adequate performance due to design flaws.

None of my finned designs surf “better” or even as well without fins. The reason is that they are designed to be surfed with fins. Take the fins out and performance suffers. The front third of the rail is an up-rail which is a continuation of the belly bottom in the nose and is designed to be “forgiving”, to not catch and which, therefore, offers little hold into the wave face. Complicating that is the rear half of the board, which has a hard-edge, down rail that is designed to shed water for speed. Shedding water and providing “hold” are mutually exclusive. The design relies upon the fins for hold. So, it's not just a matter of tweaking a single design element, in this case adding or removing fins.

If you are going to use fins on a prone board, they should be placed where the rider will exert maximum pressure when turning. By studying photographic stills (both on top of the water and under water) of prone riders turning, and from my own experience it appears to me that the wave-side, rear corner is where that force is being applied on finless foam body boards. And, that makes sense given that the majority of the rider’s weight on 42" body boards is focused there when turning. But the shape of the outline in this location must also be considered. Boards are rolled onto the rail when executing a turn. A straight outline, which is what you see on most body boards, will resist turning more than a curved outline. So, having a bit of curve or “hip” in the outline in close proximity to the fins will shorten the turning radius. Likewise, having some bottom curve or rocker out at the rail will also enhance turning. Now, you could just stick some fins on a finless body board, but you would not obtain the full advantage of a finned-based design, because the outline would remain straight and the rocker would remain relatively flat. And, if you didn't add any fin toe-in, its likely that the board would feel stiffer handling. Or worse, too much toe-in and the fins would be in conflict with the straight rail causing a sense of drag when not turning.
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Re: Can't help myself

#63

Unread post by krusher74 »

nomastomas wrote:Lots of good design-related issues being brought up in this thread. Here’s my $0.02:

Every good, i.e. “workable” design is an integration of all its functional elements, e.g. outline, bottom contours, rocker, fin placement, finless, etc. It’s very “Gestalt-ish”, where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It's important to understand how each design element influences all the others, otherwise you can end up with design elements that, while individually sound, are in conflict with others. This is what I call “purposeful design”; design based upon function, not just aesthetics.

The trial-and-error approach has been the cornerstone of surfcraft design throughout time. But, successful trial-and-error development requires both organization and purposeful design. Larry Goddard’s work is the perfect example of the trial-and-error approach applied to prone-board design. His methodology is as important as his designs themselves. To help train your mind to adopt this approach, you should keep a diary of each shape, recording your rationale for the use of every design element, notes on how the design functioned in real-life conditions, and what you might do to improve the performance. This approach will save you money in the end, because you won’t waste money on designs that are doomed to less than adequate performance due to design flaws.

None of my finned designs surf “better” or even as well without fins. The reason is that they are designed to be surfed with fins. Take the fins out and performance suffers. The front third of the rail is an up-rail which is a continuation of the belly bottom in the nose and is designed to be “forgiving”, to not catch and which, therefore, offers little hold into the wave face. Complicating that is the rear half of the board, which has a hard-edge, down rail that is designed to shed water for speed. Shedding water and providing “hold” are mutually exclusive. The design relies upon the fins for hold. So, it's not just a matter of tweaking a single design element, in this case adding or removing fins.

If you are going to use fins on a prone board, they should be placed where the rider will exert maximum pressure when turning. By studying photographic stills (both on top of the water and under water) of prone riders turning, and from my own experience it appears to me that the wave-side, rear corner is where that force is being applied on finless foam body boards. And, that makes sense given that the majority of the rider’s weight on 42" body boards is focused there when turning. But the shape of the outline in this location must also be considered. Boards are rolled onto the rail when executing a turn. A straight outline, which is what you see on most body boards, will resist turning more than a curved outline. So, having a bit of curve or “hip” in the outline in close proximity to the fins will shorten the turning radius. Likewise, having some bottom curve or rocker out at the rail will also enhance turning. Now, you could just stick some fins on a finless body board, but you would not obtain the full advantage of a finned-based design, because the outline would remain straight and the rocker would remain relatively flat. And, if you didn't add any fin toe-in, its likely that the board would feel stiffer handling. Or worse, too much toe-in and the fins would be in conflict with the straight rail causing a sense of drag when not turning.

It was interesting (but well known hydrodynamic theory) that on one finless board I tried a Hard edge on the back 12" of the rail. with the water shearing off the board was very loose/slid out. But with that hard edge sanded of to a 1/16th radius the wrapping water gave very good rail hold back with no slipping (used in 6ft g-land) So I think a finless and finned design can be very close. (but the best for each is maybe further away)
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