TBG5

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.

Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:00 pm

(1) "...typically hanging [on] for the ride." EXACTLY!!

(2) and, yes "More on-rail surfing" would definitely help, but see (1) above.

More on-rail surfing is definitely the correct tactic here. This thought crossed my mind earlier in the thread, but for some reason I didn't give it enough attention. Now considered, it makes total sense. Turing almost always results in a de-acceleration. Learning to sense when my acceleration reaches lift-off speed and knowing when to start to roll over onto rail will take some practice. I just need to anticipate the speed and be prepared to take action when the situation arises.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:12 pm

Going on-rail is nice but often times isn't practical, e.g., making a late drop on a sizeable wave out in the ocean and with wind rushing up the face -- riding on-rail turns the board into a sail, and you go rocketing back over the lip (or experience that sailing up to the lip and then smack down by the lip! Now that is a jarring experience!). So, in the bottom turn or coming out of the bottom turn at speed, that is the challenge of skipping skimming like a flying saucer over the surface chop or slight cross swell on the face of the wave. On a stand-up board one can mitigate some of this by positioning on the board and also having the knees serve as shock absorbers.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:26 pm

Can't argue there...sometimes the lift happens immediately on the drop. Or rather, on the bounce! Late take-off to air-drop to bounce-air-bounce-etc. Sometimes on big, steep waves it helps to take off on an angle. There is still the air-drop but landing just below and parallel to the lip helps reduce the immediate acceleration that typically follows going down the face. Fins really help to "stick" the landing, but you need to be wary of getting sucked up into the pitching lip. That rarely ends well...
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:35 pm

No strategy will necessarily always work, but there are the rudiments of an approach here.

Nomas suggested awareness - one question is, as you start to feel bounce will an adjustment to reduce board bottom to wave face, make a difference. If so, how much rail needs to be dug? There may also be a speed & chop threshold - something may work up to a certain speed or level of chop. Rod added in the variable of strong winds.

A design where this seems less of an issue, but is a different dimension, is the foil. One thing I liked about the design was Surffoils description of being able to ride through chop/white water.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:24 pm

bgreen wrote:<snip, snip>
A design where this seems less of an issue, but is a different dimension, is the foil. One thing I liked about the design was Surffoils description of being able to ride through chop/white water.


I can't imagine being out at my specific break with a lethal foil weapon! That would be very, very scary. Reminds me of Terry Hendricks's initial hydrofoil paipos which had a push button mechanism to deploy the foil (but that was mostly to easy paddling out in shallow and weedy waters). Maybe a foil such as Gilbert Lum's would be manageable (less deadly).
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby jbw4600 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:31 pm

All my boards have point forward of the midline. But I ride my boards all the way forward. My elbows are 13 inches from the nose. So I drive the forward edge. This a better purchase on the water. One of my boards has a more of a bodyboard outine. I can pretty much ride anything on that board. I skip on waves, when there is chop.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:14 am

I asked John Elwell about this - excerpts from two e-mails:

"The skipping stone is a good example about planning and LIFT. It was probably the first example that early humans saw of planning on the water. No one could explain it except flat oval rocks the right size can actually skip and fly. Most rocks can't skip and sink.

Bernouilli's equation explains some of it. The stone has momentum when thrown, It hits the water at an angle with force and it's weight....the leading edge, a hydreon deflects the water producing kinetic energy increasing it's momentum each time it's skips. It finally loses momentum, and sinks.

When Simmons came along and speeds increased some riders experienced a violent sensation after hitting chop and being propelled with such force when they hit the water they hit the water bounced and painfully with impact they were "skipping like a stone".

Lindsay Lord sheds more light on this with planning hulls. Planning hulls don't do well in rough water, especially boats which become dangerous, with bows plunging. Speedboats hit chop skip and somersault and crash.

With surfboards the same thing happens. Simmons made a board so light that it flew and went out of control. He increased weight and turned up the nose that had camber or belly.

Lord worked out a number of problems for the Navy as the PT boats in WWII were breaking the bows off and yawing. The problem was redesigning the bow so it would lift go over the wave and re enter gradually with out pounding. Simmons understood this. He spliced a 3 foot section on the bow, he called a scoop or 'spoon'.

The uplift and camber pushes the water to each rail for earlier lift. If the bow comes in contact with the water on steep take off or encounters chop, it lifts. While we surf he said the bow is out of the water. Lord said flat noses work in calm water but when they come down at higher speed and slap it like putting on the brakes!

What we are experiencing is resistance from the bow or nose that had to be dealt with if possible. Planning hulls skip and bounce in rough water to the point of great instability from resistance.

We must remember we are dealing with "dynamic forces". On a surfboard we get thrown off and body board we feel those forces in our arms and on our body. We may be able to improve it by redesigning the nose to lessen the impact and correct itself depending how ...antagonistic the sea is.

Pat Curren came up with a heavy balsa and redwood board with a cambered nose that of 45 lbs, that was hard to get into waves but if you took off late, the board was stable and momentum and went through the chop. Pat learned how to ride it. Others could not equal his style of hair raising late take offs.

Simmons also recommended two coats glass which provided 4 layers on the rails. His big wave boards were also 45 or so pounds, for stability and momentum. You can try and increase weight and improving the nose and see if that works".

"In rough water we usually reduce speed, in aircraft when we hit turbulence we try and avoid it but usually pilots will reduce speed and altitude.

One way to reduce speed in turbulence is to change the angle of attack by bringing up the nose to stall and let the tail drag to get through the resistance. We do put more pressure on the board in down angle for acceleration. The equation works on pressure "P" squared that squares the velocity "V". We control the throttle by controlling the pressure and angle of attack. We can trim through some of these things.

His noses on all of his boards were cambered like a "spoon" and dished out on top for lightness. Concave may also help as it may cushion the slam into the chop. This is something you can play around with on experimental boards:.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:02 pm

Thanks! Some interesting stuff..
"Skipping stone" stuff - yes, especially the notion that that there is actually an acceleration as a result of the skip. I've definitely experienced that.
"Nose scoop" - yes, I've slowing been increasing the nose rocker on the TBGs. Current nose rocker is 3". More rocker throughout might also hlp to slow things down a bit, and to improve on-rail performance. All the TBGs have "belly" in the nose as well. Maybe steeper "V" panels would help cleave through the chop?
Tail pressure - Lord found that, as speed increased and a planing craft lifted, there was an increase in pressure in the rear third of the bottom, which created drag. This was true for the rider-less sleds he used in his experiments. The addition of a rider would only increase that pressure. Simmons took this idea and placed an open end concave in the tail of his shapes to help relieve the pressure , reduce drag and thereby increase speed. I adapted this idea by splitting the single concave into two, parallel concaves. Campbell Bros Bonzers have a similar design feature. Perhaps this feature is not only unnecessary but detrimental in larger waves? Too much speed generating too much lift.
Concave - assuming a "contained" concave (not open at one end), adding concave increases lift, complicating the issue.
I still like the notion of reducing planing surface by being on rail more often, but I think there are also some design features that can be manipulated to create a "better tool for the job".
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:22 pm

Weight is certainly a mitigating tool when dealing with stone skipping phenomena especially in light surface shop and some mild cross swell effects. One reason that I have my boards made with a heavy fiberglass cloth regimen (two coats, top and bottom, and not just the 4 oz cloth). Riding rail, when that is possible, is most useful in glassy, low wind conditions. I haven't observed riding rail as mitigating much in choppier/cross swell conditions nor in high wind situation. I'd like to see what the heavy nose "V" could do to mitigate stone skipping.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:37 pm

I'm not a believer in the effect of board weight. Different story if boards surfed without riders. In my case, the total "load" would be 5lbs for the G5 and 190lb for the rider = 195lbs. The G5 is only about 3% of the total load. Doubling the weight of the G5 would only add 5lbs to the total load, or another 3%. Heavier objects accelerate slower than lighter object, but I don't think I would notice a 3% increase/decrease in mass one way or the other while riding. Walking back up the beach is another matter:-)
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:18 pm

I'm a big believe in weight--just my experience in the water--and body weight does not appear to be as big a player. I also see this in catching waves (or not) along the Florida Space Coast where I need a fatter, more floaty board to catch a wave regardless of whether I am weighing 185 or 225; my skinny board just doesn't cut it (until the surf becomes bigger and punchier).

My heavy boards run 8 to 10 lbs, my medium boards in the 5-8 lb range. I've been on an ultralight 3-4 lb'er and those things just ain't right! On the other hand, a 20 lb solid wood paipo just plowed through the chop (granted, it was in smaller surf but the effect was noticeable). Just my own empirical experiences (and not all tested under controlled scientific methods!).
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:57 pm

Here's the G5 in action in Indo recently with Aussie surfer Grant at the helm. Grant said he spent several hours a day, on a ten-day trip riding the G5 and comparing it to his foam body board. He took a fin key and a few different fin pairs into the water and made changes in between sets. Preliminary discussions have led to some design changes.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:27 am

What sort of design changes did you have in mind? Is this the same guy that has been riding your boards for a few years.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:46 am

Actually, I introduced Grant to Dave, my customer from a couple years back, over a year ago. Grant wanted some feedback on my then current model, the G3. He ended up buying the board from Dave and liked it so much that he wanted a G4. But, sometimes life gets in the way, and I didn't hear from him again until last Fall. He was planning this trip to Indo and was ready to order a G5.
Grants48.JPG
Grant's 48" TBG5 just prior to shipping.


Our discussion was brief, just couple of emails, but my immediate takeaway was to increase the tail rocker, both centerline and out at the rail. There will be more to come...
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:55 pm

I think you once said that these guys were north of Sydney. I couldn't miss the board if I saw it.

Was the increased rocker to ride hollower waves?
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:19 pm

Tighter turns...(unfortunately, at the cost of less top end speed). W're talking subtle changes in performance. He did add that at one break he visited, he was able to make a very speedy section that he has failed to make in the past. I'm finding the design issues to be very similar to those encountered when trying to adapt a weak wave, grovel board, to work in more powerful waves. With weak waves, speed, both paddling and surfing, trumps responsiveness, e.g. traditional fish, mini-Sims, etc. Trying to strike a compromise between design features that can cancel each other out is a painstaking task of trial-and-error.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:06 am

I may be wrong, but my guess is that most people surf ordinary to ok waves most of the time.

My trip to Indonesia a couple of years ago, highlighted the need for a board that would handle larger & long-lined hollow groundswell waves.

It's hard to get a board that rides well in all conditions.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:01 am

Yep...
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby Nels » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:59 pm

It's hard to get a board that rides well in all conditions.


Maybe sometimes you...Boogie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssf5y28RwK0

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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:21 pm

nomastomas wrote:Tighter turns...(unfortunately, at the cost of less top end speed). W're talking subtle changes in performance. He did add that at one break he visited, he was able to make a very speedy section that he has failed to make in the past. I'm finding the design issues to be very similar to those encountered when trying to adapt a weak wave, grovel board, to work in more powerful waves. With weak waves, speed, both paddling and surfing, trumps responsiveness, e.g. traditional fish, mini-Sims, etc. Trying to strike a compromise between design features that can cancel each other out is a painstaking task of trial-and-error.


Spot on, Tomás. My sort-of Bonzer paipo, because of some "mistakes" made in the shaping job does better at some of my surf spots in Puerto Rico in turning a tighter radius due to the increased rocker curvature and kick in the tail rails ; by the same token it does not take off like a jet as my proper Bonzer paipo does (but this board I don't really favor for most of the PR spots that I like ride). I won't take the sort-of Bonzer to Costa Rica but that proper Bonzer is dialed-in for that spot :)
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:35 am

Nels,

What can I say? Krusher is probably better qualified to comment on the respective merits of these craft in Indonesian waters.
In tubing waves, boogie boards are established performers. The waves I had in mind were hollow, but long walled. Boogie boards in average waves are also a different matter.

Rod,

Are you exclusively riding bonzers these days? Do they have bonzer fins or your own preferences?
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby Nels » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:40 pm

What can I say?


Messing around a bit there, but...I know Indo is the Hawaii cakewalk for you guys down under, but it's so far away from the rest of us...if I were so lucky as to make that trip I'd take a boogie just to be sure of having something that is maybe a 75% "sure thing" performer...to go with whatever other craft I was most focused on. I haven't met the bodyboard that I thought would do long, lined up hollow waves as well as other craft. It isn't the materials, just the design. I'm still rather stunned that the bodyboard manufacturers haven't branched out into more bellyboard type craft, at least for the "elite" market of people like us.

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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:57 pm

bgreen wrote:Rod,

Are you exclusively riding bonzers these days? Do they have bonzer fins or your own preferences?


No, I wouldn't say so at all. Up above the thread I think we were talking about limits of specific design choices for a wide variety of wave types and riding styles. Everything is a compromise unless it is specialized. It is about maximizing vs. optimizing. So my bonzer is maximized for the Costa Rica point/lava reef wave that I ride. My Checkered RPM is maximized for many of the Puerto Rico wave breaks that I tend to ride. And my baseline Austin design is for my under 6 ft East Coast surf (bigger or punchier I would use the Checkered RPM). My Bonzer design isn't very suitable for the typical East Coast type wave but that is also a function of non-Bonzer characteristics we talked about here and in a related thread and pivot and tight turning looseness. On the CR waves I do not feel a turning radius issue on my paipo Bonzer design.

Having said that the baseline Austin paipo design it optimal for all wave types -- I can ride it and have a great time but the design prevents me from maximizing total joy and performance in all wave types relative to the other two boards I ride.

Now back to "exclusive." I am just not riding that much East Coast surf lately!!!
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby jbw4600 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:39 pm

Come on Rod! Get out your 5/4 wet suit and go for it.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:04 pm

jbw4600 wrote:Come on Rod! Get out your 5/4 wet suit and go for it.


It is hard, so hard! That is, when the bones begin to freeze, yikes. And make that the 6/4 with integrated hoodie, the 5mm gloves and layers of 5mm, 2mm, 1mm fin socks. It has been a cold transition from winter to spring and the creaping arthritis in my hands/fingers this past couple of months are playing nice for cold water surfing. Cape Hatteras waters are in the low-50s right now but these continuing run of Nor'Easters keep chilling things up. Closer to home the water is 41F. Brrr... back to CR next year!

A couple of buddies and I had been planning to visit N. Oregon, but after thinking about it some more the one guy said flat out , "NO!" because his body just can't handle it anymore.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:26 pm

Nels wrote:
What can I say?


It isn't the materials, just the design. I'm still rather stunned that the bodyboard manufacturers haven't branched out into more bellyboard type craft, at least for the "elite" market of people like us.

Nels


The interesting/frustrating thing about BBs is that they aren't mainstream. Boogieboards don't seem to stray too far from established parameters, with lots of test pilots in good waves. BBS and paipos on the other hand go in all sorts of directions. With all things BB, it is a very small market. Elite?
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby krusher74 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:40 pm

Coming from riding bodyboards, when designing the outlines of my paipos I have used tried and tested fave boards as templates and found that a paipo with the same template as a bodyboard performs the same as far as turning, Where is looses is on speed.

Bodyboards have had a long time on the world stage and many pro have their own model. The have tuned the lengths , materials and templates over years of competition , the one place that has been somewhat stagnant is hull design, and a lot of that is due to the way bodyguards are made stopping hull design being easy to make with compound curves.
There is not a changeable stringer system for different temp waters. http://www.rideiss.com/

Especially in warm waters a bodyboard will have more flex and this flex in turn slows it up. my same template paipo is considerable faster.

I do also consider that standard bodyboard length 41/42" is the equivalent of a stand up shortboard 5.10/6.0 and when your riding a paipo in the 45/60" range your in the minimal zone. I have never found other than straight line speed due to more planing surface the extra length to be anything other than a hindrance to turning.

I've been trying for a few years to get a bodyboard copy of my paipo made to see how it's design works in that medium. Should finally be getting one this winter, This ex toobs shaper is capable of bodyboard innovation.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby Nels » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:51 pm

The interesting/frustrating thing about BBs is that they aren't mainstream. Boogieboards don't seem to stray too far from established parameters, with lots of test pilots in good waves. BBS and paipos on the other hand go in all sorts of directions. With all things BB, it is a very small market. Elite?


Worthy of it's own thread and maybe I will when I get a chance, but for now...the whole surfing culture is undergoing something akin to a slow-motion "polar shift" right now. Bodyboarding has been effectively "orphaned" from the surf industry economics and perhaps more practically "castaway" culturally. As one who has been involved since the 70's it has been no end of frustration that the designs have stayed so near to the original. Lately I am thinking that maybe the first Boogie came off maybe 75% "perfect" or "maximized". Any deviation of design seems to push the concept into bellyboard or paipo environs. Kneeboards are just more akin to standup boards but the creativity from that genre can apply to all forms of waveriding (and I'd love to hear more from the people involved over the kneeboarding span).

Bodyboarding is now fighting the massive influx of new surfers going straight to crap soft standup boards and then "surfing" pedestrian style. It's literally much easier for a newcomer to go that way than to get into bellyboards and fairly easier than for them to go bodyboarding and stay in the activity for a while, much less turn it into a lifestyle. That really hurts paipo/bellyboarding. Without the ability to really pump out boards in serious volume it is going to be hard for anybody to seriously move paipo design. Simple economics. Even if someone had capital to order up a container of bellyboards from Asia...there's going to be economic limitations on how many different designs could be done in a run, and that would put design changes down to once or twice a year at best.

So it's up to the individuals who ride, order, and make what I suspect are the handful of new paipo/bellyboards to move things forward...because they want to. The rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't care and thus really can't comprehend. Which makes it kind of an "elite" activity in my book...not a bad thing, really.

Edit: After reading this upon posting just now...I should add this qualifier. My observations are based on what I see in the U.S. From what I see online these days the rest of the world seems much more open to bodyboarding, although I have no idea how that translates to the local surfing culture. That said, the basic bodyboard design malaise remains; perhaps as Krusher just said inherent to materials or basic "standard" design constraints.

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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:29 pm

The US is very low on the bodyboarding spectrum--it has substantially diminished over the past decade or two. I would also say the mainland USA surfing community is very segregated and antagonistic towards each other. I notice this especially with USA foot surfers bringing their attitudes to overseas countries.

A lot of the bodyboarders in PR have stringers. My son couldn't really ride his US boogie board down there because it would turn into mush.

P.S. There are not that many paipos/bellyboarders (or kneeboarders) for that matter, but they tend to become lumped in with bodyboarders (proneriders). Okay, we should include surf mats and maybe handboards, too. All of these folks are established minorities... and in some places are treated as such. Quite frankly, I don't encounter this "discrimination" in PR, CR and Hawaii. Not much in Northern Oregon nor in Central California. Along the Space Coast there just isn't much outside of SUPs, longboards and shortboards, but I have bumped into some paipo riders, including a hydrofoil paipo guy, over the years. I bumped into a paipo guy when I surfed one day in N. Oregon. So... what is all this rambling about here and this part of the thread? A shared experience riding prone and varying materials and design characteristics. I certainly welcome Nomas's design/shaping expertise--he is a student of the "conflict of design" and can speak intelligently about it as a shaper. But we are all learning all of the time and bring to our learning experience a set of our own biases and preferences based upon our own personal experiences and how we like to ride.

And, Nels, you better start a new thread on bodyboarding (boogie!) before I get into trouble!!! :lol:
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby krusher74 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:00 am

Nels wrote:
The interesting/frustrating thing about BBs is that they aren't mainstream. Boogieboards don't seem to stray too far from established parameters, with lots of test pilots in good waves. BBS and paipos on the other hand go in all sorts of directions. With all things BB, it is a very small market. Elite?


Worthy of it's own thread and maybe I will when I get a chance, but for now...the whole surfing culture is undergoing something akin to a slow-motion "polar shift" right now. Bodyboarding has been effectively "orphaned" from the surf industry economics and perhaps more practically "castaway" culturally. As one who has been involved since the 70's it has been no end of frustration that the designs have stayed so near to the original. Lately I am thinking that maybe the first Boogie came off maybe 75% "perfect" or "maximized". Any deviation of design seems to push the concept into bellyboard or paipo environs. Kneeboards are just more akin to standup boards but the creativity from that genre can apply to all forms of waveriding (and I'd love to hear more from the people involved over the kneeboarding span).

Bodyboarding is now fighting the massive influx of new surfers going straight to crap soft standup boards and then "surfing" pedestrian style. It's literally much easier for a newcomer to go that way than to get into bellyboards and fairly easier than for them to go bodyboarding and stay in the activity for a while, much less turn it into a lifestyle. That really hurts paipo/bellyboarding. Without the ability to really pump out boards in serious volume it is going to be hard for anybody to seriously move paipo design. Simple economics. Even if someone had capital to order up a container of bellyboards from Asia...there's going to be economic limitations on how many different designs could be done in a run, and that would put design changes down to once or twice a year at best.

So it's up to the individuals who ride, order, and make what I suspect are the handful of new paipo/bellyboards to move things forward...because they want to. The rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't care and thus really can't comprehend. Which makes it kind of an "elite" activity in my book...not a bad thing, really.

Edit: After reading this upon posting just now...I should add this qualifier. My observations are based on what I see in the U.S. From what I see online these days the rest of the world seems much more open to bodyboarding, although I have no idea how that translates to the local surfing culture. That said, the basic bodyboard design malaise remains; perhaps as Krusher just said inherent to materials or basic "standard" design constraints.

Nels


Yes i think it would be an interesting topic on its own,

"As one who has been involved since the 70's it has been no end of frustration that the designs have stayed so near to the original"

this would be interesting to discuss, because a lot of the time I think our great design ideas in our heads dont actually work.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:09 pm

rodndtube wrote: The US is very low on the bodyboarding spectrum--it has substantially diminished over the past decade or two. I would also say the mainland USA surfing community is very segregated and antagonistic towards each other. I notice this especially with USA foot surfers bringing their attitudes to overseas countries.

A lot of the bodyboarders in PR have stringers. My son couldn't really ride his US boogie board down there because it would turn into mush.


There are not that many paipos/bellyboarders (or kneeboarders) for that matter, but they tend to become lumped in with bodyboarders (proneriders). Okay, we should include surf mats and maybe handboards, too. All of these folks are established minorities... and in some places are treated as such. Quite frankly, I don't encounter this "discrimination" in PR, CR and Hawaii. Not much in Northern Oregon nor in Central California. Along the Space Coast there just isn't much outside of SUPs, longboards and shortboards, but I have bumped into some paipo riders, including a hydrofoil paipo guy, over the years. I bumped into a paipo guy when I surfed one day in N. Oregon. So... what is all this rambling about here and this part of the thread? A shared experience riding prone and varying materials and design characteristics. I certainly welcome Nomas's design/shaping expertise--he is a student of the "conflict of design" and can speak intelligently about it as a shaper. But we are all learning all of the time and bring to our learning experience a set of our own biases and preferences based upon our own personal experiences and how we like to ride.

P.S. And, Nels, you better start a new thread on bodyboarding (boogie!) before I get into trouble!!! :lol:
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby Nels » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:05 pm

Heh heh...sorry about the semi-hijack there, back to nomastomas and his TGB5 and onward...
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby CHRISPI » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:39 pm

Gee I fell so isolated, I did not realize I was such a minority??
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby belly rider » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:57 am

rodendtube comment I certainly welcome Nomas's design/shaping expertise--he is a student of the "conflict of design" and can speak intelligently about it as a shaper. But we are all learning all of the time and bring to our learning experience a set of our own biases and preferences based upon our own personal experiences and how we like to ride.

Hear Hear totally agree 150% well worded good statement
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:19 pm

Yeah, if you're not learning your not growing. Case in point: My Aussie customer raved about the improved performance of his new quad G5 when using only the rear fins. Now, this guy is an experienced body boarder who prone-rides in waves of consequence. I have to pay attention to his feedback. Prone boards are pretty much surfed and turned off the wave-side, rear corner. Makes sense that that is where the pivot point for turns should be. AND, why not enhance that twinnie set-up with a canard fin placed forward of the main fin, a.k.a. Twinzer? Had to try it....
G5_Twinzer_Small.JPG
G5_Twinzer_Small.JPG (151.82 KiB) Viewed 916 times


Surf was pretty pathetic, but I got enough "facetime" to appreciate the possiblities. In smaller, crappy waves, like this test day, hold is not an issue while speed an responsiveness are. Board speed was probably equal to the quad set-up, but turns were quicker/snappier. Now I'm thinking that I should modify my quad set-ups to go with the larger fin in the rear and the smaller fin in the front. Use wave size to determine how much total fin area is needed for desired hold, and varying front and rear fin size according to desire for more responsiveness; much smaller front for more pivot-y feel, and just slightly smaller front for more drive and projection (But always keeping the largest fin in the rear).
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby asier esnal » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:08 pm

When you see your keel system, it reminded me of the typical windsurfing mounts in the quad system. small fins front and big back.

there is a lot of information about this on the internet, it gives fresh air and many ideas to study other modalities

That paipo has a design that excites me. congratulations

in this photo also appears the system of 2 central fins, which has me crazy
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby Nels » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:02 am

Windsurfing is pretty near dead around me, couldn't tell you the last time I saw a windsurfer. Everything is kitesurfing. Until these posts I literally have never seen that particular 2 + 2 fin configuration.

Of course I'm a surf-hermit so that probably isn't good for expanding the horizons...

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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:59 pm

This is a minor progression in the G5 line. I moved the twin fin cluster almost 1.5" towards the rear and added a set of FCS plugs to accommodate a "Nubster" or other trailing fin. The twin mods came from feedback I received from an Austrailian customer and the trailer was a request from a customer in Florida, who spent a lot of time on Twinnies in his "younger" pre-knee surgery days.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:00 pm

Here is the G5 bottom and outline adapted to a 5-11 kneeboard. Owner liked it so much, that he ordered a second one with 1/4" less thickness. As a shaper, I really enjoy the applicability of this design. I could imagine a 5ft'er for you guys who enjoy the "mega" prone board approach.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby bgreen » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:28 am

Hello Nomas,

How is the finless branch of the family tree going?

Bob
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:17 am

Go to the FX thread for an update....
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby nomastomas » Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:02 am

The G5 has become my goto board on OH+ days. Ease of duck-diving is the primary reason, and, with no need to get to my feet, steep and/or late take-offs are much more manageable. In the past, I've been plague by excessive lift in larger surf, but I think I've discovered a solution. It occurred to me that the planing efficiency of this shape, while beneficial in small waves, becomes detrimental in larger, more powerful waves. The mini-Simmons stand-up shape has the same issues. So, with this in mind, I decided to introduce more drag to the shape by increasing the fin size. I'm currently using True Ames Twin Fins (5.25"x5") placed in the read quad boxes of my G5, with a small 1" canard fin placed in the rear slot of the front fin box. My research showed no precise location for the canard fin, other than forward of the big fin and maybe an inch or so away. The idea remains the same: the canard cleans up the flow of water across the foiled side of the larger fin, reducing cavitation and loss of hold.
Twinzer.JPG
Twinzer-esque setup
Twinzer.JPG (104.35 KiB) Viewed 137 times

My experience has been that the fin set up reduces skipping, almost eliminating it. It also reduces speed, bringing it down to a more manageable and controlled level. Instead of losing sight of every thing watery speed blur, punctuated by body slams, I was able to enjoy the ride. Turns are very pivoty and precise, as would be expected from the larger fin, set in the rear corner. Hold was excellent, allowing me to go anywhere on the wave face, for as long as I wanted. I also found that it was easier to get around any whitewater. Usually, if the wave breaks in front of me, I get stuck being pushed side-ways by the whitewater (really bad on the finless GFX) There was more opportunity to get back on the face with the large twin fins.
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Re: TBG5

Unread postby rodndtube » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:16 am

Thank you for sharing the update.
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