TBG5

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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rodndtube
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by rodndtube » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:18 pm

I'm a big believe in weight--just my experience in the water--and body weight does not appear to be as big a player. I also see this in catching waves (or not) along the Florida Space Coast where I need a fatter, more floaty board to catch a wave regardless of whether I am weighing 185 or 225; my skinny board just doesn't cut it (until the surf becomes bigger and punchier).

My heavy boards run 8 to 10 lbs, my medium boards in the 5-8 lb range. I've been on an ultralight 3-4 lb'er and those things just ain't right! On the other hand, a 20 lb solid wood paipo just plowed through the chop (granted, it was in smaller surf but the effect was noticeable). Just my own empirical experiences (and not all tested under controlled scientific methods!).
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by nomastomas » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:57 pm

Here's the G5 in action in Indo recently with Aussie surfer Grant at the helm. Grant said he spent several hours a day, on a ten-day trip riding the G5 and comparing it to his foam body board. He took a fin key and a few different fin pairs into the water and made changes in between sets. Preliminary discussions have led to some design changes.
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by bgreen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:27 am

What sort of design changes did you have in mind? Is this the same guy that has been riding your boards for a few years.

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by nomastomas » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:46 am

Actually, I introduced Grant to Dave, my customer from a couple years back, over a year ago. Grant wanted some feedback on my then current model, the G3. He ended up buying the board from Dave and liked it so much that he wanted a G4. But, sometimes life gets in the way, and I didn't hear from him again until last Fall. He was planning this trip to Indo and was ready to order a G5.
Grants48.JPG
Grant's 48" TBG5 just prior to shipping.
Our discussion was brief, just couple of emails, but my immediate takeaway was to increase the tail rocker, both centerline and out at the rail. There will be more to come...
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by bgreen » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:55 pm

I think you once said that these guys were north of Sydney. I couldn't miss the board if I saw it.

Was the increased rocker to ride hollower waves?

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by nomastomas » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:19 pm

Tighter turns...(unfortunately, at the cost of less top end speed). W're talking subtle changes in performance. He did add that at one break he visited, he was able to make a very speedy section that he has failed to make in the past. I'm finding the design issues to be very similar to those encountered when trying to adapt a weak wave, grovel board, to work in more powerful waves. With weak waves, speed, both paddling and surfing, trumps responsiveness, e.g. traditional fish, mini-Sims, etc. Trying to strike a compromise between design features that can cancel each other out is a painstaking task of trial-and-error.
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by bgreen » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:06 am

I may be wrong, but my guess is that most people surf ordinary to ok waves most of the time.

My trip to Indonesia a couple of years ago, highlighted the need for a board that would handle larger & long-lined hollow groundswell waves.

It's hard to get a board that rides well in all conditions.

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by nomastomas » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:01 am

Yep...
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by Nels » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:59 pm

It's hard to get a board that rides well in all conditions.
Maybe sometimes you...Boogie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssf5y28RwK0

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by rodndtube » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:21 pm

nomastomas wrote:Tighter turns...(unfortunately, at the cost of less top end speed). W're talking subtle changes in performance. He did add that at one break he visited, he was able to make a very speedy section that he has failed to make in the past. I'm finding the design issues to be very similar to those encountered when trying to adapt a weak wave, grovel board, to work in more powerful waves. With weak waves, speed, both paddling and surfing, trumps responsiveness, e.g. traditional fish, mini-Sims, etc. Trying to strike a compromise between design features that can cancel each other out is a painstaking task of trial-and-error.
Spot on, Tomás. My sort-of Bonzer paipo, because of some "mistakes" made in the shaping job does better at some of my surf spots in Puerto Rico in turning a tighter radius due to the increased rocker curvature and kick in the tail rails ; by the same token it does not take off like a jet as my proper Bonzer paipo does (but this board I don't really favor for most of the PR spots that I like ride). I won't take the sort-of Bonzer to Costa Rica but that proper Bonzer is dialed-in for that spot :)
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by bgreen » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:35 am

Nels,

What can I say? Krusher is probably better qualified to comment on the respective merits of these craft in Indonesian waters.
In tubing waves, boogie boards are established performers. The waves I had in mind were hollow, but long walled. Boogie boards in average waves are also a different matter.

Rod,

Are you exclusively riding bonzers these days? Do they have bonzer fins or your own preferences?

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by Nels » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:40 pm

What can I say?
Messing around a bit there, but...I know Indo is the Hawaii cakewalk for you guys down under, but it's so far away from the rest of us...if I were so lucky as to make that trip I'd take a boogie just to be sure of having something that is maybe a 75% "sure thing" performer...to go with whatever other craft I was most focused on. I haven't met the bodyboard that I thought would do long, lined up hollow waves as well as other craft. It isn't the materials, just the design. I'm still rather stunned that the bodyboard manufacturers haven't branched out into more bellyboard type craft, at least for the "elite" market of people like us.

Nels

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by rodndtube » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:57 pm

bgreen wrote: Rod,

Are you exclusively riding bonzers these days? Do they have bonzer fins or your own preferences?
No, I wouldn't say so at all. Up above the thread I think we were talking about limits of specific design choices for a wide variety of wave types and riding styles. Everything is a compromise unless it is specialized. It is about maximizing vs. optimizing. So my bonzer is maximized for the Costa Rica point/lava reef wave that I ride. My Checkered RPM is maximized for many of the Puerto Rico wave breaks that I tend to ride. And my baseline Austin design is for my under 6 ft East Coast surf (bigger or punchier I would use the Checkered RPM). My Bonzer design isn't very suitable for the typical East Coast type wave but that is also a function of non-Bonzer characteristics we talked about here and in a related thread and pivot and tight turning looseness. On the CR waves I do not feel a turning radius issue on my paipo Bonzer design.

Having said that the baseline Austin paipo design it optimal for all wave types -- I can ride it and have a great time but the design prevents me from maximizing total joy and performance in all wave types relative to the other two boards I ride.

Now back to "exclusive." I am just not riding that much East Coast surf lately!!!
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by jbw4600 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:39 pm

Come on Rod! Get out your 5/4 wet suit and go for it.

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by rodndtube » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:04 pm

jbw4600 wrote:Come on Rod! Get out your 5/4 wet suit and go for it.
It is hard, so hard! That is, when the bones begin to freeze, yikes. And make that the 6/4 with integrated hoodie, the 5mm gloves and layers of 5mm, 2mm, 1mm fin socks. It has been a cold transition from winter to spring and the creaping arthritis in my hands/fingers this past couple of months are playing nice for cold water surfing. Cape Hatteras waters are in the low-50s right now but these continuing run of Nor'Easters keep chilling things up. Closer to home the water is 41F. Brrr... back to CR next year!

A couple of buddies and I had been planning to visit N. Oregon, but after thinking about it some more the one guy said flat out , "NO!" because his body just can't handle it anymore.
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by bgreen » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:26 pm

Nels wrote:
What can I say?
It isn't the materials, just the design. I'm still rather stunned that the bodyboard manufacturers haven't branched out into more bellyboard type craft, at least for the "elite" market of people like us.

Nels
The interesting/frustrating thing about BBs is that they aren't mainstream. Boogieboards don't seem to stray too far from established parameters, with lots of test pilots in good waves. BBS and paipos on the other hand go in all sorts of directions. With all things BB, it is a very small market. Elite?

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by krusher74 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:40 pm

Coming from riding bodyboards, when designing the outlines of my paipos I have used tried and tested fave boards as templates and found that a paipo with the same template as a bodyboard performs the same as far as turning, Where is looses is on speed.

Bodyboards have had a long time on the world stage and many pro have their own model. The have tuned the lengths , materials and templates over years of competition , the one place that has been somewhat stagnant is hull design, and a lot of that is due to the way bodyguards are made stopping hull design being easy to make with compound curves.
There is not a changeable stringer system for different temp waters. http://www.rideiss.com/

Especially in warm waters a bodyboard will have more flex and this flex in turn slows it up. my same template paipo is considerable faster.

I do also consider that standard bodyboard length 41/42" is the equivalent of a stand up shortboard 5.10/6.0 and when your riding a paipo in the 45/60" range your in the minimal zone. I have never found other than straight line speed due to more planing surface the extra length to be anything other than a hindrance to turning.

I've been trying for a few years to get a bodyboard copy of my paipo made to see how it's design works in that medium. Should finally be getting one this winter, This ex toobs shaper is capable of bodyboard innovation.
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by Nels » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:51 pm

The interesting/frustrating thing about BBs is that they aren't mainstream. Boogieboards don't seem to stray too far from established parameters, with lots of test pilots in good waves. BBS and paipos on the other hand go in all sorts of directions. With all things BB, it is a very small market. Elite?
Worthy of it's own thread and maybe I will when I get a chance, but for now...the whole surfing culture is undergoing something akin to a slow-motion "polar shift" right now. Bodyboarding has been effectively "orphaned" from the surf industry economics and perhaps more practically "castaway" culturally. As one who has been involved since the 70's it has been no end of frustration that the designs have stayed so near to the original. Lately I am thinking that maybe the first Boogie came off maybe 75% "perfect" or "maximized". Any deviation of design seems to push the concept into bellyboard or paipo environs. Kneeboards are just more akin to standup boards but the creativity from that genre can apply to all forms of waveriding (and I'd love to hear more from the people involved over the kneeboarding span).

Bodyboarding is now fighting the massive influx of new surfers going straight to crap soft standup boards and then "surfing" pedestrian style. It's literally much easier for a newcomer to go that way than to get into bellyboards and fairly easier than for them to go bodyboarding and stay in the activity for a while, much less turn it into a lifestyle. That really hurts paipo/bellyboarding. Without the ability to really pump out boards in serious volume it is going to be hard for anybody to seriously move paipo design. Simple economics. Even if someone had capital to order up a container of bellyboards from Asia...there's going to be economic limitations on how many different designs could be done in a run, and that would put design changes down to once or twice a year at best.

So it's up to the individuals who ride, order, and make what I suspect are the handful of new paipo/bellyboards to move things forward...because they want to. The rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't care and thus really can't comprehend. Which makes it kind of an "elite" activity in my book...not a bad thing, really.

Edit: After reading this upon posting just now...I should add this qualifier. My observations are based on what I see in the U.S. From what I see online these days the rest of the world seems much more open to bodyboarding, although I have no idea how that translates to the local surfing culture. That said, the basic bodyboard design malaise remains; perhaps as Krusher just said inherent to materials or basic "standard" design constraints.

Nels

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Re: TBG5

Unread post by rodndtube » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:29 pm

The US is very low on the bodyboarding spectrum--it has substantially diminished over the past decade or two. I would also say the mainland USA surfing community is very segregated and antagonistic towards each other. I notice this especially with USA foot surfers bringing their attitudes to overseas countries.

A lot of the bodyboarders in PR have stringers. My son couldn't really ride his US boogie board down there because it would turn into mush.

P.S. There are not that many paipos/bellyboarders (or kneeboarders) for that matter, but they tend to become lumped in with bodyboarders (proneriders). Okay, we should include surf mats and maybe handboards, too. All of these folks are established minorities... and in some places are treated as such. Quite frankly, I don't encounter this "discrimination" in PR, CR and Hawaii. Not much in Northern Oregon nor in Central California. Along the Space Coast there just isn't much outside of SUPs, longboards and shortboards, but I have bumped into some paipo riders, including a hydrofoil paipo guy, over the years. I bumped into a paipo guy when I surfed one day in N. Oregon. So... what is all this rambling about here and this part of the thread? A shared experience riding prone and varying materials and design characteristics. I certainly welcome Nomas's design/shaping expertise--he is a student of the "conflict of design" and can speak intelligently about it as a shaper. But we are all learning all of the time and bring to our learning experience a set of our own biases and preferences based upon our own personal experiences and how we like to ride.

And, Nels, you better start a new thread on bodyboarding (boogie!) before I get into trouble!!! :lol:
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Re: TBG5

Unread post by krusher74 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:00 am

Nels wrote:
The interesting/frustrating thing about BBs is that they aren't mainstream. Boogieboards don't seem to stray too far from established parameters, with lots of test pilots in good waves. BBS and paipos on the other hand go in all sorts of directions. With all things BB, it is a very small market. Elite?
Worthy of it's own thread and maybe I will when I get a chance, but for now...the whole surfing culture is undergoing something akin to a slow-motion "polar shift" right now. Bodyboarding has been effectively "orphaned" from the surf industry economics and perhaps more practically "castaway" culturally. As one who has been involved since the 70's it has been no end of frustration that the designs have stayed so near to the original. Lately I am thinking that maybe the first Boogie came off maybe 75% "perfect" or "maximized". Any deviation of design seems to push the concept into bellyboard or paipo environs. Kneeboards are just more akin to standup boards but the creativity from that genre can apply to all forms of waveriding (and I'd love to hear more from the people involved over the kneeboarding span).

Bodyboarding is now fighting the massive influx of new surfers going straight to crap soft standup boards and then "surfing" pedestrian style. It's literally much easier for a newcomer to go that way than to get into bellyboards and fairly easier than for them to go bodyboarding and stay in the activity for a while, much less turn it into a lifestyle. That really hurts paipo/bellyboarding. Without the ability to really pump out boards in serious volume it is going to be hard for anybody to seriously move paipo design. Simple economics. Even if someone had capital to order up a container of bellyboards from Asia...there's going to be economic limitations on how many different designs could be done in a run, and that would put design changes down to once or twice a year at best.

So it's up to the individuals who ride, order, and make what I suspect are the handful of new paipo/bellyboards to move things forward...because they want to. The rest of the world doesn't know and doesn't care and thus really can't comprehend. Which makes it kind of an "elite" activity in my book...not a bad thing, really.

Edit: After reading this upon posting just now...I should add this qualifier. My observations are based on what I see in the U.S. From what I see online these days the rest of the world seems much more open to bodyboarding, although I have no idea how that translates to the local surfing culture. That said, the basic bodyboard design malaise remains; perhaps as Krusher just said inherent to materials or basic "standard" design constraints.

Nels
Yes i think it would be an interesting topic on its own,

"As one who has been involved since the 70's it has been no end of frustration that the designs have stayed so near to the original"

this would be interesting to discuss, because a lot of the time I think our great design ideas in our heads dont actually work.

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