my first paipo 44

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
asier esnal
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my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:55 pm

Good morning. I do not know much English and I'm using the Google translator, sorry for the phrases that are not understood
I want to introduce myself, my name is Asier and I live in the Basque country. well known for the waves like zurriola, zarautz .. and good food, I live very close to the French coast

For years I surfed with short boards and longboards through egg, but I have changed my home and I do not have fast access to the beach, I have to go by motorcycle, a scooter and we are forbidden to take the surfboards

This has given me enough courage to change the modality to the paipo, which I was looking forward to, we have tides, waves and very unfavorable wind conditions for surfing but with paipo or bodyboard you can take a good test to those waves

with all this I have designed a paipo of maximum size that I can take in my small motorbike 44, to design it.
As I do not know much about this, I copied a photo of a modern bodyboard to solidworks Science Bodyboards Style on their page they also offer them, thank you very much for this detail. I have taken the measurements for this design, then I have added a rounded nose to give the look paipo that I like so much

design made of eps epoxy and fiberglass, paipo 44, can not be larger x 21.5. but not the thickness, volume or liters it has to have. my measurements are European 1.77 m tall the man to the ground 106 cm weight 73 kg

with a thickness of 50mm it gives me a volume of 24.3. 53mm 25.8l and 55mm 26.8l

is going to be a paipo for fast waves, waves from 1m to 2.5m but there is a brutal massification of surfers and bodyboard so it has to have enough volume to compete in the capture of waves, I know this is not very ethical, cordial , not nice, but in the water there are days of fights and punches

I do not know if you know these studies of hydrodynamics for surfboards. I have made a few surfboards with this form of songs and they are fantastic, the best I have ever tried. I passed the link of your page
http://www.cambersurfboards.com/home/ld-technical/

I have made a plan in solidworks of the project of paipo, the keels will go in boxes of longboard keels of 10 inches long that I have to spare

but I do not know where to put them, 5 inches starting from the tail, this is already entering into a fine detail, and even if it is not even if the model is correct

I'm willing to redesign the entire paipo if needed, I'm looking for an updated Austin Paipo design, for example, so I added this tail shape so typical of the boyboard

I want to thank you for all the information you share, it is a real pleasure to be able to read your experiences, I hope I also contribute something in this great forum
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asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:49 am

keels. in my last tables I used a configuration copied from Neal Purchase Jnr, with an incredible result. I have not seen any paipo with this design. I wonder if someone has raised it
http://nealpurchasedesigns.com/duo/

I pass a picture with my 2 last tables so you can see the idea
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asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:50 am

After reading the great discussion of this forum, I have redesigned the paipo, now I understand why the tail of the bodyboard is not used in paipos with keels, it generates a lot of resistance
I have not designed the concave in 3d, it's just a quick sketch, a visual way to present the ideas
http://mypaipoboards.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=600

I added the fins system from http://nealpurchasedesigns.com/duo/
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asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:08 am

the result would be something like this but in more width

What size of fins do you recommend for this set up?

in aliexpress I have seen aso how many models in 30% fiberglass + 70% black nylon in 6.5 and 7.5 what is the hand that does not measure the base

Image

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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by rodndtube » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:02 pm

There are some 1950s/1960s era paipos with those close fin sets.

For me, I am not a twin-fin rider. The center fin is still part of my life and riding style. I started on a single fin, evolved to a 3-fin set for my Austin-related boards and use a 5-fin set on my Bonzer paipo. Back in my single-fin days and early 3-fin days the center fin ranged from 5.5 to 8 inches (my sidebites were around 2" and out by the rails without any cant nor much toe-in). My Bonzer paipo quickly scaled down from a large fin set to a 4.5" center and small runners fore and aft. The Bonzer fins are canted and toed-in per Bonzer theology. That is my fin bias/preference in a nutshell. The finless community will provide a completely different perspective ;)

Generally speaking my observation would be that you are proposing a lot of fin area in close proximity for a very short board 42-60 inches long). My guess is that you could sustain the same fin advantages with fins half the size but closer to the rail. Not much, if any, toe-in is needed unless you are an aggressive rider and turner.
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:22 pm

Bill Thrailkill (who posts on Swaylocks) and others have done this before. It is called a 'twingle' if the fins are relatively close 1 or 2 inches (25-50mm). AKA "double single". Like at this link...

https://goo.gl/images/G6bweg

asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:47 pm

I know that system of fins, in fact before doing my surfboards, I did some basic studies of hydrodynamics, I am not an engineer but I am doing courses and learning in a self-taught way

It is not the same case, but the biplane planes also give good ideas about the design.

the first idea that is clear to me, the fins have to have a minimum separation equal to their base. otherwise, the current of the water will interfere with the other, and if they are too close together they can end up with a venturi effect, which would be a current of water in the direction of the water, that is a disaster

I put a picture of one of the studies that I made

study of separation of wings biplane aircraft
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asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:41 pm

There is so much information in the forum that I'm finding it hard to find this link that has helped me a lot, I still have too much influence from the surfboards

I see that the keels used are around 5 inches, which would be the size Mark Richard twin and the like.
and maybe it will be interesting is to buy a 12mm sheet in g10fr4 material and carve my own fins. I have found more models but none of cheap plastic

Are these measures correct?

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viewtopic.php?f=11&t=45
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asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:44 pm

I'm defining the paipo better, thank you very much, a question about the thickness, What volume do you recommend?
1.77 m tall the man to the ground 106 cm weight 73 kg

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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by rodndtube » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:15 pm

asier esnal wrote:I'm defining the paipo better, thank you very much, a question about the thickness, What volume do you recommend?
1.77 m tall the man to the ground 106 cm weight 73 kg
Volume is a very loaded question. You are using EPS foam which is very floaty. The board is around 44 inches and 21-1/2 inches wide and a very wide tail. You are about 5'10" and weigh around 160 lbs. You could easily stretch the board out another 4 inches to 48 inches, or 4 ft even, and still be comfortable kick paddling. You could also narrow the board to 21 inches as you seem to be a relatively non-wide person. There is also the option of having a dome-top board (thick center going thin to rails) or an evenly thick board. How much float do you want, very buoyant, barely buoyant or somewhere in-between?

Regarding fins and fin boxes, you should have several options. I use a 4.5 inch rather standard fin shape in a standard Fins Unlimited center fin box. For one reference point, see:
https://greenlightsurfsupply.com/
FCS fin boxes have the advantage of using two-plug or single-plug fins, and there are several fins that fit the FCS boxes (you have been mentioning keel fins so search for FCS keel fins). Other fin sources might be SUP, kite board, kneeboard, etc. FCS fin boxes and fins open up the experimental world quite a bit.

Remember, you are scaling fins to a 4 ft. board rather than a 8 or 12 ft. board!
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asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 pm

Volume is a very loaded question. You are using EPS foam which is very floaty. The board is around 44 inches and 21-1/2 inches . You are about 5'10" and weigh around 160 lbs. You could easily stretch the board out another 4 inches to 48 inches, or 4 ft even, and still be comfortable kick paddling. : the paipo has to be 44 maximum to be able to take it on the sccoter bike between my feet,

wide and a very wide tail: when passing the plane of the computer to the real, I realized this, I thought it too wide, this is the result of a body, which tail measurement would be more appropriate?

You could also narrow the board to 21 inches as you seem to be a relatively non-wide person. this seems like a great idea

There is also the option of having a dome-top board (thick center going thin to rails) or an evenly thick board. :

I have made a few surfboards with this shape and I am happy, they work very well, and to make it easy, you do not have to make a bottom with a rounded channel, complicated to do by hand symmetrically. In this design, the central part is flat and the edges fall in this way.  very used for aircraft wings in slow bulges and difficult landing
I attach a quick drawing of the singing form

I have posted in a previous post the hydrodynamic studies in surfboards that have been done, it is not my own idea

How much float do you want, very buoyant, barely buoyant or somewhere in-between?
I need to love myself fast, there is overcrowding in the water without any respect for priorities. in a wave we can row 15 people at once ................ crazy. with this I think it will have to be high volume

fins, I like the keel with us box, this allows me to vary the response of the board in the water, later, more turn. backward, more grip, this gives me a lot of maneuver in the changes of tides so strong that we suffer, days of 4m difference high tide with low tide, the cantabrian sea is very hard in this

I want to apologize for so many questions, really you are all good people
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by rodndtube » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:00 pm

No apologies needed! Maybe I need to apologize in forgetting your 44" maximum length ;)

Width... you will hear many different opinions on this, from very narrow to very wide. Many of our opinions are driven by our riding styles, the types of waves we ride, our own bodies, wearing wetsuits or not, and many other reasons.

Some thickness will probably make some sense given your crowd conditions. Where do you do most of your surfing?

On fins, I hear you about liking the flexibility to adjust fin position depending upon wave conditions. I do that with my center fin as well. My sidebites run in a narrow range of 1-3/4 to 2-1/4 inch, in a fixed small fin box (mostly FCS, a couple of Futures), although with some single plug FCS fins I can make a slight adjustment.

Big tide differences! I've experienced that in N. Oregon and Costa Rica, and the one time I was in Aquitaine France.
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asier esnal
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:42 pm

Where do you do most of your surfing? in san sebastian, zurriola beach. beach breaker
Aquitaine is 40 minutes away by car I sometimes go but not much, lack of time

I like the 2 + 1 system, but to test the parallel central finals system, let us use 2 + 1. It gives me much better result. that's why I want to transfer it to the paipo.
what works in a surfboard may not work in a paipo, but to calm my head I have to prove it

I'm studying Larry's great work incredibly well detailed. the downside that I have is that his designs are around 48 51, too big, when passing his vectors to the measure of 44 loses all the magic, gives a result of paipo patata

http://mypaipoboards.org/interviews/Lar ... humb.shtml

I am realizing that I have to follow the bodyboard designs and retouch it and give an aesthetic paipo, as I started at the beginning of this idea

weight of my paipo, I've been looking at bodyboard materials ranging from 1.3 to 1.9 pcf, in some the 2. are mixed. My eps is 25 kg / m3 = 1.5 lb / ft3 with the fiber will be well off compared to these, so that if I follow the sizes they recommend, I would not be very wrong, or so I think

what gives me a question, you like the volume and float that gives the brand http://sciencebodyboards.net/board-finder/?
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by bgreen » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:52 am

I'm a fan of twin fins on bellyboards. I've ridden a single fin and 5 fin bonzer, but really prefer finless or small fins (under 4"). Positioning a pair of twin fins close together, like you propose, is an experiment. It may or may not work. I'd suggest riding prone would be very different to stand-up with such a design. If they don't work, and you could just add a set of FCS plugs with more standard positioning.

I've surfed Zarautz - does it get very hollow? If not, a board that planes well would be useful. There are also some gems west of Zarautz.

I've seen some racks that go alongside the scooter, that would allow a somewhat longer board.

I like a volume around 20 litres - as Rod said, this is a personal thing.

I wouldn't worry about trying to get it perfect. It's going to be an experiment and you'll be down the bottom of the pecking order, in the water.

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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by Nels » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:34 am

Huh...lot of food for thought but after a fast pass this morning on my way to who knows what the thought I had was twin fins for paipos...larger fins the closer to the centerline, smaller near the rails...to allow for wider tail width of paipos. Seems like there should be some kind of mathematical formula there...either existing or waiting to be created. Probably with variables for distance from actual tail edge.

Nels

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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:40 am

Nels wrote:Huh...lot of food for thought but after a fast pass this morning on my way to who knows what the thought I had was twin fins for paipos...larger fins the closer to the centerline, smaller near the rails...to allow for wider tail width of paipos. Seems like there should be some kind of mathematical formula there...either existing or waiting to be created. Probably with variables for distance from actual tail edge.
Off top of my head...pointy though it may be, maybe what would be needed in terms of fin size, esp depth, is that you have about same amount in the water as board leans over on a rail. So roughly, maybe a line (perpendicular to stringer) that runs straight from bottom of rail, touches deepest part of further apart fins, and also touches deepest part of more central fins. Eyeball, seat of the pants thing. At least as start point for experiments.

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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:35 pm

bgreen: I spoke with the police a year ago, I showed them the supports for motorcycles and the stores where they sell them, they answered me, that in certain countries the European assistance is allowed, France for example, in the Basque country Spain is illegal and they can fine

size of the paipo. I am an animal, a very hard head

all the time I have thought to bring the paipo vertically red square of the photo. this limits me the height 44, if it is very high, I do not see, I can not drive. but if I take it orizontal green square photo can be longer, leave maneuver to make a 52. this gives me a lot of joy, I will not make it bigger by hair with the wind and cars

PS: I improved the representation of the photo, this is more clear as the paipo has to go, dangerous, but I have no other option
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:41 pm

I studied this to make my surfboards, it's a quick, not scientific, I'm not an engineer but the result in surfing has been good

size fins regarding its separation from the center. if we take for good a central single keel of 8 in another side table in traditional position, close to the rail are 4

of hangs the separation in which are the 2 lateral fins, varies, to a position of 100mm of the rail gives a hole of 6.5 inches, you have to ask for this size of keel to put the paipo, I had studied it from a better way calculating the areas of the fins, but for a quick explanation, I think it's very visual
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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:59 pm

I had similar on small motorcycle (Honda 90 in 1970), horizontal board mount. Couple "U" shaped brackets attached by bolt on to the frame. The main issue was cross winds! On the hwy out of town (Santa Cruz) getting passed by big trucks was a bit like a suicide attempt. Also, along the coast there, afternoons most days got pretty stiff onshore wind. But it did get me around for awhile. Much prefer though being able to get into a warm car with heater after surfing.

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Re: my first paipo 44

Unread post by asier esnal » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:01 am

http://mypaipoboards.org/interviews/Lar ... humb.shtml

70 to 75 percent of the 22" board width, or somewhere in the 15.4"-16.5" range = ok

(measured at 3", 6" and 12" back) were 12"-16"-20" ? I can not find out how you got these maths, can you help me?

LarryGoddard: The outline shape of the hotdog boards is elliptical, and for the high-speed boards, I use an 'Exponential Curve" which gets straighter towards the rear half of the board.

06 BDS (top drawing on page). By 1967, I had settled on the 54" x 22" overall board size for my favorite point breaks, Malibu and Rincon. On this page, with the top drawing, I explored the possible nose and tail widths for my next board. I chose the extra-wide 19" tail (measured here at 2" up from tail end, because of the small-radius square tail chosen for high speed). I wanted a nose width of around 70 to 75 percent of the 22" board width, or somewhere in the 15.4"-16.5" range. I chose to use the 16" nose (measured at 6" back), and the resulting nose widths (measured at 3", 6" and 12" back) were 12"-16"-20", (that nose line is drawn slightly darker).

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