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I've been thinking about this for a while, particularly as I am exposed to a variety of people who ride paipo. A fundamental issue design difference between paipo and stand-up boards seems to be that paipo can be turned from the nose.

Wally Froiseth added handgrips which have been duplicated by a range of people on wood and fibreglass boards (Robert Moynier, Wes Humpston, Leigh Tingle to name just a few); John Galera has a rope handle at the front of his boards which are used for leverage; Paul Witzig uses a horn-like steering mechanism and the nose can be grabbed in a variety of ways to produce a turn.

While paipos are also turned through pressure on the tail corners and body positioning, stand-up boards (I can't speak about kneeboards) aren't turned from the nose and are made to be surfed either from the tail or somewhat further forward.

Other than hand-grips or a steering mechanism are there any other examples of mechanisms to assist turning or design aspects built into a board to promote turning from the nose area?

Bob

Quick answer: through board rocker, through board rail design and fins (skegs). One of the biggest mistakes found when stand-up or knee board shapers make a paipo is the misunderstanding of where the center of gravity is for a paipo (or bodyboard). Where the board planning sweet spot is critical for a kipapa-style (prone) rider on a relatively short board. Taken to an extreme consider being a body surfing using a hand plane and having through board rocker or nose scoop!

Generally speaking, the center of gravity for a kneeboarder is from center to center-aft (e.g., look at placement of the knee pads on kneeboards).

Swim fins and one's hands/arms can also be factors in turning and riding the wave.

Personally, I have never found the need or desire for a hand held steering mechanism such as handles (and actually find them rather frightening -- do not want to snap a wrist or break an arm or fingers). I will commend the design used by Gus Acosta's Wave Arrow that builds in some hand gripping features.

Rod,

You're not getting away with a quick answer. Specifically, how do reckon rocker, rail design and skegs differ? Difference in planing spot - ok, where do you think it should be - further forward? Of course, this will vary with board length etc.

Bob

bgreen wrote:Rod,

You're not getting away with a quick answer. Specifically, how do reckon rocker, rail design and skegs differ? Difference in planing spot - ok, where do you think it should be - further forward? Of course, this will vary with board length etc.

Bob

Rocker is the first part of the equation and works with and affects the rail transition line and size of the fins needed. Not much rocker is needed -- maybe none at all for some -- although I like a tad. As you mention above and earlier posts, yes, the planning spot for many of our short boards are up front -- see pics of our heads and arms out in front of the nose of the board. Too much curvature in the nose or through the front part of the board, or most of a short paipo board and you create a lot of drag. Too much nose scoop or upturn in the nose rail and you end up pushing a lot of water and creating drag from the water's release from the rail.

Rod,

Thanks. It's interesting in some of the photos that I have of me surfing that the front section of the board isn't in the water. Larry Goddard's boards have no thickness in the nose it is all in the rear half. Chest back - planing sweet spot?

What sort of rail are you referring to as 'upturned' - hard/soft and something else.


Bob

My early boards from way back when had more thickness in the back, albeit they were not very thick boards, however, I noticed that I tended to be forward on the board and the thickness in the rear of the board provided too much float back there. Still a decent place for greater thickness, just not too much. I don't like to ride way back on a paipo... if I did it might as well be a hand board!

The upturned rail in the nose is the opposite of turned down hard, but it was part of the upturned soft and also part of the belly and scoop. Okay if you ride far back on the board like a kneeboarder, but not for a forward prone planner.

The fundamental point is that a proper, and by that I mean finless and super thin, paipo has absolutely nothing to do with a surfboard. Paipo boarding is an extension of bodysurfing. A dead flat planing surface with possibly some slight upturn or spoon in the nose to prevent pearling is what is required.

Since ones center of balance is at the hips grabbing the outside rail at that point when turning is the only necessary "handle." Just grab the nose with your other hand.

Rod,

This issue of thickness distribution seems to play an important role in how far forward/back you ride. Your comment about - you may as well be handplaning, raises the issue of the HPD, which is more like sophisticated bodysurfing. While Paipojim (thanks) has way more experience riding a HPD than I, the front hand can also play an important role in lifting the rail - especially to dig the board into the wall on steep takeoffs or sections) but providing some angling as well. Looking at http://vimeo.com/9742493 it is interesting to see just how much they move both arms about.

We really need more paipo footage to check this stuff out (as well as for the record).

Also, finless I tend to ride further back.

Bob

Great link to an awesome video green! Great guitar. Late takeoffs. Cool cutbacks. Dropping in behind the curl and making it. Catching the reforms. And generally awesome speed...

Whether I am riding my HPD, Austin, or my plywood paipo, I ride very forward ala superman style. I pull my feet out of the water as well as turn off of my hips. The biggest difference between them in my riding has to do with how much shifting of my whole body that I do, with the HPD being by far the most.

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Way too much rocker on that bump!

For the most part the people on this forum would concur with your overall premise, Deathbed (re-named to his longtime profile, Soulglider). Sometimes it is fun to knicker down and try to define or understand things - it is part of our (paipo) heritage. It is also a sound reason to use the long time, broad based term bodyboarding in describing the genus. There is NO clarity in the debate of what is this and what is that. Tons of grey, not all black and white. Such is also the art of design which is always the game of compromise. There is no perfect design. But as individuals we know what we like! Nonetheless, I am still searching for that paipo that doesn't skip over the surface of the waves on a nice 8 to 12 foot wave with some light cross chop!

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Soulglider, so does your displacement hull design differ in any significant way from a longer hull ? How do you turn your board?

Inquiring minds like detail.

Bob

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Soulglider, does the rocker change along with where the deepest part of hull is? Foot boards have that flat(ish) rocker area in front of fin for about 18 inches or so then a little lift in the tail. Do you continue the curve of the front rocker further back and then run it flat off the tail sort of like an old school fish?

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Have you ever tried one of these thinned waaaaay out, basically like a GG kneelo spoon? Probably not so great in smaller, weaker waves but duck diving ease could make it worth it for juice...

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