5 June 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 035585080/
John Morris
Has anyone ever seen a photo or movie that showed Hawaiian islanders pre-statehood riding an unbroken wave prone? If only royalty rode the very big boards then most surfing was probably conducted lying down, head first. The earliest illustrations don't appear to be well observed. Were the later photographs also remiss in capturing the variety of wave riding styles?
https://www.surfresearch.com.au/1896_Th ... nac_Riding...
Rod Rodgers
In the pre-1900 writings one needs to read carefully to determine if the riders were standing, sitting, kneeing, laying. That is true for not just Hawaii, but around the world even into the pre-WWII period. Of course, pre-Hawaiian statehood (also known as pre-Gidget) would include the winter of 1958-59, and there is a ton of such footage. Long lense cameras or waterproof just were not widely available in the 19th century and before.
The Royalty had the very largest boards in part due to the logistics and cost of felling a tree inland and transporting the sizable piece of wood to the beach and the time it would take for form a large board. The alaia boards ranged in size from 5 to 10 ft, maybe larger.
To answer your question, in part, in the 19th century and earlier there was a ton of prone riding. And a lot more surfriding breaks were available to the non-royalty folks than is implied in many writings.
Finney, Ben R., and James D. Houston. (1966). Surfing, the Sport of Hawaiian Kings. Rutland, Vt: C.E. Tuttle Co., as shown in MyPaipoBoards Annotated Bibliography.
May be a black-and-white image of blueprint and text that says "Shown here are two figures, ,a diagram and a display, of ancient Hawaiian surfboards (click on pic or larger image) ANG #oET-BoAлИR COLLECTTION ALAIR dinplay กัอ Of interest these two figures the typology for describing the boards. The figure the left describes three types of boards, bodyboard, alaia and olo. The figure on the right describes only two types boards, alaia and olo. However, the figure on the right displays one olo, many alaia and least two bodyboards the larger boards lined up on the right could be ridden as stand-up style alaia or or prone style bodyboards (kioe)."
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John Morris
the sitting part is curious, don't you think? How do you take off while sitting on a low flotation short wooden board? Even with a paddle it would be tough, I think.
Rod Rodgers
A lot of those boards were alaias, 5 to 7 ft. Different waves behave differently. Along the East Coast USA it would be a challenge for me, more doable along the South Shore Waikiki. My guess it that the artists drew the best they could remember.
One myth is that paipos were only ridden by kids. I suspect that was mostly an extrapolation of a mindset rather than based on empiracal information.
Jarrett Liu
Rod Rodgers, none…. These all came after…
Larry O'Brien
Not a deep-water photo, but this old postcard, about 110 years ago, does give us a good look at the template of one of the kid's boards, because he's holding it up and out of the water.
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John Morris
Yep, and they look pretty thin. The photos I've seen all appear to show riders in water knee or waist deep at most and sometimes right up on wet sand. Take offs would likely be jumping into the oncoming wave, not paddling or kicking. That's much like what appears in photos taken in England and South Africa, where advanced ocean skills were much less prevalent. So, I have to wonder, is that how paipos were traditionally ridden in Hawaii?
Larry O'Brien
I once read that the swim club guys in South Africa, would swim way outside to the breakers, and ride half-size boards (2 feet long?) It was in a mid century booklet about riding four foot British boards.
Jarrett Liu
these are later during American whaler ships arrived.. all others countries about the same time ocean villages rode small wood planks that were thrown down by wood carvers. Here in Hawai’i, it came from Kamehameha the first during battles.
John Morris
I'd be interested to hear more about that.
Bob Green
whats the booklet?
Larry O'Brien
You and Your Surfboard by Bartlett. I just checked, and it was a brief mention, "Some of the best and boldest surfing I have ever seen was by men in Durban who either used no boards at all or had boards about half the size of yours." So it must have paraphrased in my memory, or I read an earlier edition? Years ago when I first read that, it inspired me to make a 24 inch poplar board.
Bob Green
The South African surfing story is an interesting one. As for small boards, I've seen reference to them in a few Australian newspaper articles from the early 20th century and there is a photo of Duke Kahanamoku from 1915, where there are several young boys with small wood boards. I also saw some photos of what appeared to be paipos, but when told the length (30-40" and 14" wide), they were obviously a smaller style board, often used like a skim board.
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Bob Green
This article from 1911 also refers to boards under 2'
May be an image of surfboard and text that says "THE SURF BOARD. The uHe of surf boarda is forbidden in Sydney but where there are not 80 many people bathing vo1 Gan do some fine shoot- ing with it. The board ន8 light 8s you get should be 2it or slightly under length, and not more than 18in. I width. Time the wave as alreadv suggested. The hoard is gripped in the at each end, further edge inelining upward from the water at an angle οί lexs than 45 degrees. held at arm's length. Try it only where there are not many people bathing together at one time."
John Morris There aren't too many photos of boards or surfing, 1900 to the 1950s. This photo from 1906, was taken from Edison's film, excerpt here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz32fG3Y2dY Wally Froiseth told John Clark, that before his Pai Po boards, boards were shorter, narrower and thinner.
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Jarrett Liu
this is way later…
Bob Green
if you mean the photo is later, i can send a link to the full film from 1906.
Jarrett Liu
it’s
.. genealogy shows back in mid 1700’s…
Bob Green
Jarrett Liu Thanks. That's a long way back. What does it say about surfing? Here is the full film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRKNZZZHQpo The excerpt I showed starts about 29:56 though there is surfing from 28:32.
Hawaiian Islands | A Film by Thomas A. Edison Shot in 1906
Jarrett Liu
it tells the story of young Ali’i keiki’s playing along the shoreline with small wood planks that was found around the Wa’a builders…
Bob Green
One of the earliest surfing photos - Taken at NiIhau, it featured in an issue of the Journal of American Folklore date 1894. For more details -
https://surfresearch.com.au/z1800_Photos.html
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John Morris
one knee rider and two prone riders? A couple of surfers waiting out the back. Cool.
Craig Douglass
Al ways good to see historical photos and drawings from most of what I've seen kneeboarding seems common
Jarrett Liu
I have a copy of my mother’s genealogy of how wood plank were used n where it came from….
Bob Green
Jarrett Liu, how far back does your mothers genealogy go?
Jarrett Liu
It was before the year of 1789…
Gareth Jones
If a mal rider hangs ten does a Paolo drag one?
John Morris
gender dependent
Gareth Jones
sorry
Rod Rodgers
Drags three.
Menno van Schagen
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 939290080/
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Rod Rodgers
I met Menno van Schagen over a decade ago. He has a place in South Cocoa Beach, FL, and began collecting paipo/bellyboards in the early-2000s. He and Roy Scaffidi, owner of Oceansports World, are waveski riders and longboarders. Roy directed to me to Menno after seeing some paipos on display at Roy's store. FYI on waveski surfriding:
https://www.waveskiadventurers.com/hist ... aveski.../
BTW, Menno is a surfer who lives in the Netherlands
Jim Cain
7 August 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 007695080/
8 August 23
Charlie Harris
Casey bellyboard
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 418105080/
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.. genealogy shows back in mid 1700’s… 