https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 194995080/
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Keith Usher
For some context for you, The name paipo (pronounced pipe-oh) is derived from the Hawaiian “Pae Po'o” which means to surf headfirst. So to me, any rode prone board is a paipo.
Rod Rodgers
I agree there and would go a step further... bodyboards are really the family head name (genus) that encompasses prone boards known as boogie boards, wood boards and foam/glass boards, with and without skegs (fins). Bodyboards fall under the genus call surfriding boards which falls under the genus of surfing (which includes body surfers, mats, bellyboards, foot surfers and SUPs... and the niche groups of canoe, surf ski, etc.). Somewhere along the way boogie boards were renamed bodyboards (something to do with Tom Morey's trademarking of Boogie Board™).
Bob Green
No dispute that paipo are part of surfing, but where a neat categorisation breaks down is that paipo boards have also been ridden kneeling and standing. Conversely, surfboards have been ridden prone by some, Proneman rode a board that must have been 8' Perhaps a case for fuzzy logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic
Rod Rodgers
The genus basically falls into prone riding of a rigid or semi-rigid board (not bodysurfing or mat surfing which are two other forms). Someone can ride a paipo board but not be paipo surfing, e.g., somebody standing or kneeling--doing so transforms the board into a knee board or surf board, in that case it is usually a really short short board. The inverse is also true for proning long boards. What is the *intent* of the board's use?
Now please do not regress into when is a paipo a noserider vs. a standup foot surfing noserider!!!
What is the Hawaiian term for riding a surfing board "nose first" instead of "head first?"
Pae Ihu or Pae Nuku?
Simplified to Pai`ihu or Painuku? I kind of like painuking for surfing as I have been nuked on my board more than a few times.
Bob Green
I'll skip the regression. The Hawaiian paipo contests featured guys like Harry Akisada and Stan Osserman who rode kneeling. Here's Stan's take: "I think I started knee riding just for the challenge. Several folks knee rode at Makapu`u, but I think what keeps people from knee riding is the pounding that your knees take. For some reason, even at age 56, and with no deck-pads on any of my boards, my knees don't bother me. I usually only ride lying down on a large wave at a break I'm not used to yet, with a steep face and a late takeoff. A paipo requires a late takeoff in most cases, but once it's moving, it accelerates quickly across the wave. Consequently, if I'm surfing at a break with regular surfboards, sometimes I'll stay on my stomach to accelerate away from them before I get on my knees.". Source: https://mypaipoboards.org/.../StanOsser ... 1211.shtml
Rod Rodgers
I've been on my knee or knees on occasion but that was situational to riding a given wave on a specific day, not something I really intended to do as a main wave riding. It is rather accurate to say that this group is focused on riding prone, on a huge universe of boards, long and short. Maybe the Surfing.com group/forum is the place to discuss riding standing on a Beater board or some other radically short board. Too many standard deviations from the norm!
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Bob Green
It would make for a great movie scene, a guy taken back in time explaining to all these Hawaiian paipo riders from the 1950s to 1970s (and beyond) that they were riding beaters and short boards, and then revealing a true paipo board to them. Unlike other traditional Hawaiian boards we know there is no documented history and even the head first translation is debated. We just have to live with the ambiguity of it and enjoy riding them in whatever way we prefer.
Rod Rodgers
well the interesting thing in this interpretation are the differences in the boards in the 1950s to 1970s with the paipo boards of the first half of the 20th century and the boards before then. In general reading I am sometimes confused about what "traditional and ancient" boards are when people talk about them. On the other hand, I have no problem in acknowledging that surfriding craft do have a genus structure and recognizing that some forms of surfriding is separate from the boards and how they were designed to be ridden. As I have commented widely there is not "true" paipo board at least in the framework of the perfect answer.
Within this context is the interesting development and oddity is the Wally Froiseth "Pai Po" board where he designed (late-1940s/early-1950s) the board to ride large Makaha standing up, called it a pai po (another term for a small board commonly ridden on the belly), but one he intended to ride standing up on large Makaha waves. The board featured a handle on the nose area and sported two skegs (very unusual configuration at that point in time). The board sported his own decal with the term "Pai Po" on it, which quickly was shortened to "paipo" in common usage. Some have called these boards papa li`ili`i, othesr papa pae po`o and other bellyboards, bodyboards and boogie boards.
Bob Green
John Clark told me Wally Frosieth's boards were 4' and that he was told earlier paipo boards were shorter, narrower and thinner, though I've seen photos of longer, narrow boards (like a UK bellyboard) as well. Wally Froiseth could be credited with the twin fin style of board which has morphed in many directions. The other obvious design direction has been the Paipo Nui which were about 3', but like all things varied a bit. These post war paipo were simple planning machines, though some are quite sophisticated in how they achieve this. While the origins are unknown we've spoken to quite a few from Hawaii who rode boards from the 50s onwards, with some video available - http://home.brisnet.org.au/.../HawaiiPa ... aipo.shtml
Before the boogie board: Hawaiian paipo boards
Rod Rodgers
I haven't seen in the UK style flip nose boards in the Hawaiian pre-1950s periods. The ones marked as bodyboards in the Bishop Museum collection tend to be in that 48 in long form (and surely some shorter ones), parallel rail plan shape, in narrower ranges than commonly seen in today's paipo/bellyboarding family, but wider and thicker than the UK-style. These boards were also convex on both sides, no concaves.
Figure source: MyPaipoBoards.org, from: Finney, Ben R. and James D. Houston. Surfing: A History of the Ancient Hawaiian Sport. San Francisco: Pomegranate Artbooks, 1996, p.43.
18 October 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 553625080/
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Hey everyone I have a question?...Is there a specific difference between "Bellyboard" vs "Bodyboard"? Or is it basically the same description but named differently. Mahalo
Keith Usher
People interchange many names for all sorts of prone craft, but mostly a bellyboard is known as the old traditional plywood craft from england and the bodyboard (boogieboard) is the plastic/foamboard designed by tom morey.
bellyboard
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thank for sharing your insite, terms, and knowledge on my question. So now days boards are made in so many ways (polyurethane, EPS, epoxy, etc) and most of what I ride are made this way and many may view it as body/boogie board. Will I be judged differently if I post content in that manner? Laying on my belly, with a board,
and catching a wave, Just trying to be respectful and stay on topic with this page.
Keith Usher
I can't speak for all (or run the page), but generally, i would say that we are a prone craft group. Blow-up surf mats and hand planes tend to have their own pages. I feel what you are riding would be welcomed with interest by most members and one member from South Africa was constructing from scratch similar to your boards. What you call them does not matter to me but without pictures, some may think you are riding a board you are not if a certain name is used.
Matt Bendt
just a cultural naming difference for sure
Russell Kalaola-Wightman
Sam Pa'e looks to me what you have there is a Boogie Air Performance Board by Sam Pa’e “Fly High Hawaii”. When does the Hawaiian Superman board come out?
Sam Pa'e
Yeah that board is a one of a kine. Nobody has this model. But then it take a special technique to stay on flight.
Give the family my love. Miss you braddahJohn Morris
Someone once said 'boogie chillun' but I'm not sure it was prone surfcraft they had in mind. Are surfmats body bags? Is a belly board a group of abdominoplasty practitioners?
Bob Green
The Morey style bodyboard is generally not referred to as anything else by the people who ride them (though non bodyboarders still call them by Morey's original term boogieboard).
Bellyboard is a term used in relation to the UK style boards, but in t… See more
Chipper Ben
' clear as mud ' ...LOVE it , Bob !
John Morris
Any active neo-logists out there, or all laying down on the job?
Stephen Newbegin
In a world where fewer make anything that term could mean anything.
Doc Robertson
All the same ,belly,body, boogie,all just names for fun water toys...but can be used in the snow too
Stephen Newbegin
Bodyboard term by his competitors was created because Tom sold his trademark Morey Boogie to the toy companies. So although average Joe could call all of them boogie boards, the marketing departments of these firms could not. It is easier if you just think soft or hard. If it is soft, its a bodyboard and if it is hard its a bellyboard whether wood or fiberglass. But now you have all kinds of hybrid designs of hard hollow plastic or even foam materials that are soft to the body but very flexible. Then you have small wood boards that are just up from body surfing that your body or belly don't even touch. Also, now there is hybrid hard and soft boards combined in all sizes. The common denominator is they are all surfed prone or Paipo(head first).
Rod Rodgers
a very accurate description. And many different shapes, volumes, lengths. Finned and finless.
Frank Silva
9 February 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 845440080/
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Paipo loosely means in Hawaiian, head first.
Bob Green
there is some contention about this. The word paipo doesnt appear in early dictionairies. John Clarks book: Hawaiian Surfing. Traditions from the past is probably the best source.
John Mandybur
Cool Bob, the only reason I think that it is so is because I was told that by some Hawaiian dudes. China Amora , Rory Russell, and a few other. So I may be off.
Bob Green
That is one of the meanings that have been given. When im home ill see if i can scan a page.
Frank Silva
It doesn't show in dictionaries because correct word is Paepo'o
Bob Green
im not sure paepo'o is there either. I'd have to ask John.
Rod Rodgers
paepo`o is not in the dictionaries either.
Jarrett Liu
mahalo Frank, yes you are right… the historic word is Paepo’o > Papa Paepo’o, has a story of it’s true birthplace that gave it’s name “night lander” that I carried n labeled on my wood boards.
Jarrett Liu
it’s not one words it two words “pae” , “po’o”
Rod Rodgers
It appears to have evolved from multiple words over the years, from oldest to newest forms, in pronunciation and writing:
papa pae po`o » pae po`o » paepo`o » paepō (pae po) » pai po » paipo.
One might ask if there is a specific design, building method and materials used in association with each spelling and usage above. But, for now, it is time for a cafecito for me. But is it a cafecito if not made with a moka pot and copious amounts of sugar? After all, cafe means coffee and -cito means little one or as a term of endearment. But I know better than to add a cafecito at a Cuban place if I don't want any sugar!
Jarrett Liu
Olēlo always spoken with one breath. Today modern World if NOT TAUGHT correctly you’ll speak in two breath (pōhō) this is why there’s a confusion between Papa Paepo’o and Paipo pronunciation. Someone describe paipo because he didn’t understand the Hawaiian vowels of Paepo’o therefore there’s shouldn’t be any confusion, he just listed as what he wrote “Paipo”.
Frank Silva
To me the definitions are really interesting because you get a nice context of the word
From wehewehe.org
2. vi. To land, disembark, come ashore; to mount or catch a wave, as of a surf rider; washed or drifted ashore. Niho pae, a loose tooth. Manu pae, a bird that lands from afar, as a migratory bird. Palaoa pae, whale washed ashore. Pae i ka nalu, to ride a wave into the shore. Poʻe pae mai, immigrants. ʻA ʻole e pae nā waʻa o ke aliʻi iāʻoe (Nak. 56), the chief's canoes cannot land because of you. E ʻai kākou. Mahalo, ua pae kēia waʻa. Let's eat. Thanks, this canoe has landed [i.e., I have eaten]. hoʻo.pae to cause to land, reach shore. Hoʻopae malū, to smuggle, bring in secretly. Waiwai hoʻopae malū ʻia, smuggled goods. (PPN pae.)
v. To flap or shake, as a sail; to turn one side or be loose, as a tooth; as an adjective, he niho pae, a loose tooth.
2. To be carried along by the surf towards the shore; to play on the surf-board; to come to a land, as a boat or canoe; to go ashore from a vessel; to cross a river to the opposite shore. Ios. 4:18. To float ashore from the sea; no na laau hao i pae mua mai, for the timber with iron that had previously floated ashore.
3. To lift up; to raise a little.
4. To strip the bark from a tree; to peel off, as the skin of a banana or of a kalo.
5. To strike upon the ear, as a distant sound; to sound, as from a distance.
6. To be published extensively.
7. Hoo. To land; to put ashore, as a person or goods from a vessel. 1 Nal. 5:9.
Nā Puke Wehewehe ʻŌlelo Hawaiʻi
WEHEWEHE.ORG
Mike Buffalry
Would like to hear more about this. Is it spelling, meaning, regional difference....?
Frank Silva
paepo'o is the correct spelling
Mike Buffalry
thank you Frank, that is helpful to know.
Rod Rodgers
The correct spelling uses a reverse apostrophe called the okina. However, most of the commonly used fonts in the electronic world do a hatchet job on this character. So, a close approximation is another character called the "backtick" which would look like this: paepo`o. The backtick on many keyboards is under the tilde mark "~" which is commonly found in the Spanish "ñ" (en-yea), as in El Niño.
Frank Silva
aka a glottal stop
Jarrett Liu
full name Papa Paepo’o , Frank Silva is also correct
Bob Green
John Clark didn't find Papa paepo'o in any of the pre 1900 Hawaiian- English dictionaries. The view is that it is a word coined by Waikiki beach boys early 20th century. I think this view is because it wasnt a word known to early surfers from other Hawaiian islands. Paipo was Wally Froiseth's phonetic spelling around the 1950s. Clyde Aikau spoke about these boards in the Eddie documentary - worth watching to see how he refers to them. In an interview John Galera had said his uncles spoke about piper boards. Paipo nui was another variation, made up by John Waidelich. I believe Tom Pohaku has different views again about these boards. What to make of this. Words change over time and surfers have a long history of creating their own words. Papa paepo'o would seem to have the claim for earlier useage.
Frank Silva
so Papa more for the board specifically?
So saying Paepo'o without papa or ho'o would be more or less kinda vague?
pae and po'o 2 words
Rod Rodgers
And paipo nui means? Great paipo, large paipo? Probably great & large paipo with the guitar pick shape and uber wide tail and improved materials. Apparently this plan shape was new to the prone riding world on Oahu at the time which was using as he described rectangular slabs of plywood, inexpensive and readily available. Or, solid wood (or glued up strips of solid wood) along the lines of the the Froiseth shape (which incorporated innovations such as a handle near the nose and two skegs in the tail, an early twin-fin in the surfriding world.
Frank Silva
dude yes paepo'o and paepo'o nui
I would like to know the difference, from what I was told is its the shape that differentiated the 2
Paepo'o being a tapering tail and a paepo'o nui have a tail that flares out
Rod Rodgers
the vagueness depends upon the "audience" you are with. If I am with Jarrett Liu he would not need the qualifier of "papa," but in a non-surfriding gathering it provides context and meaning.
Jarrett Liu
papa means flat-surface, pae to skim po’o head, therefore papa paepo’o skimming the surface of a nalu prone style
Mike Buffalry
Jarrett Liu I like that, thank you for the knowledge!
Rod Rodgers
I ride kipapa-style boards on the salt water beasts blown my way.
Bob Green
there is a paipo interview (the search term for the interviews) with Jim Growney who was co-developer of the Paipo Nui board. Jim talks about the delta wing shape. The Paipo Nui and Wally Froiseth's twin finned boards, have been two major design threads in this style of prone riding. The other thread is the style of board Jarrett makes. My take is that Jarrett's boards and the Paipo Nui aim to be efficient planning boards. If you've not seen in there is 50s/60s footage of the Paipo Nui boards being ridden. The Froiseth styled twin finned board was influential in California.
John Mandybur
OK guys, how 'bout we just surf.
Frank Silva
John Mandybur what's wrong with this post?
Rod Rodgers
One pathway to understanding follows this train of thought: "to paipo" means to go bodysurfing with a "bellyboard." The board itself is called a paipo board."
There are many types of paipo boards, belly boards and bodyboards. My take is that riding a board prone-style on a wave is "prone board surfing" regardless of the materials, shapes, lengths, thickness, skegs, finishings. The terms used in classifying time periods is also very messy, e.g., contemporary, traditional, historical, ancient.
The evolution of the term "paipo" goes something like this:
papa pae po`o » pae po`o » paepo`o » paepō (pae po) » pai po » paipo
Earlier yet, John Clark writes in his book, "In the earliest descriptions of surfboards by Hawaiian scholars, the smallest boards, those that were shorter than six feet in length, were generically called papa li`ili`i, or "small boards."
And is the word a noun, pronoun, adjective, adverb, verb?
One of the earliest scholarly works on surfriding was published by Ben Finney, in 1959. In his work these small prone surfing boards were called "bodyboards" which certainly predates the current term used for boogieboards.
In basic terms, to paipo/belly/body board surfride is to ride on the waves with great joy.
John Mandybur
Good one Rod.
Sam Pa'e
Jarrett Liu maybe you can shine the light on this subject.
Keith Usher
What is your definition of "a traditional usage"?
Rod Rodgers
good question, lol, as traditions come and go. It is kind of like, "Is is it a boogie board or a bodyboard?" I tend to stay away from acronyms/abbreviations like BB because that can be bellyboard, body board, boogie board, belly button... but, mostly for me bodyboard/boogie board. Now, I shall go contemplate my belly button
Keith Usher
I honestly had/have no idea what he means by "traditional usage" in fact the more I read it the less I even understand what the question is.
Frank Silva
anything with shapes and specs from historical artifacts
Jarrett Liu
wow sadly to hear that people are misinterpreted upon of what is a Paepo’o & Paipo Traditional usage. Well, they both are made out of “Iron WOOD”, under 48” inches in height and condition with oilseeds. Today’s world people call it what ever they feel like, true History of who, where n when the birthplace took place. Its wasn’t during the whalers ship 
arrival, it wasn’t during Mau’i warriors paddling at night their way over to One Ali’i, Molokai and slaughtered the villagers that blood 
covered two channels of Au’ Au’ and Kalohi channels. His an Ancient Hawaiian Peacemaker: The Wise King from up North…Frank Silva
more explanation of the iron wood please, is this the same Australian pine we call ironwood today here in Hawaii?
Jarrett Liu
heoak family
Rod Rodgers
Is this the same iron wood introduced in the 1870s, that is classified as an invasive species in Hawaii?
Frank Silva
very curious as well
Stephen Newbegin
Yes, Original meaning of Paipo was head first. Tradition was a wood board. Even the wood boards today are not like the original boards for the most part. It is used in this group to all the ideas of people riding prone including even rafts. Original meaning of Bellyboard became any hard board used to surf on your belly whether wood or fiberglass. It died out mostly with inflation that made it as expensive as surfboards. Even kneeboards went from production to custom which made it very niche form of surfing. With new plastics Tom Morey brought back prone surfing as a cheap safe way to surf for the general public again. The Bodyboard name came from Boogie competitors to avoid law suits from large Toy companies that had bought Tom Morey's company and now used as anybody using soft foam board to bellyboard. People can argue all day about history but that is it in a nutshell. Because of demographics and many other reasons there was a need for a forum to ideas, experiment and experiences for a surf form that is not currently a part of the corporate surf world. What makes this exciting is that there are varied interests and boards here that are combining all kinds of surf craft that do not fit into easy categories like fiberglass with soft materials, wood with soft materials, raft material with boards,no fins, fins with very non-standard placement, wood paipos more beautiful than any Hawaiian had the materials or tools to create or other even higher technical ways of surfing prone. With all the hybrid surf innovation going on here just try anything and have fun.
Jarrett Liu
aloha no, there’s no argue about history, its EDUCATING about history and what the difference between Papa Paepo’o and Paipo, they both rides waves
but one is historical fact, nothing to do with foam board. Mahalo for sharing your Manao
Stephen Newbegin
aloha yes, I misspoke but meant discuss not argue. I have no problem with people talking about this and it seemed people were exchanging opinions. There are always new discoveries of the past that change what people think of history. I only can what I know personally. When I made my first wood board I never heard the word Paipo in San Diego. There were no bodyboards yet and I was one of the earliest kneeboarders where I live after I made my first bellyboard. This post was about definitions and their changing meaning and use. The primary purpose of this group is to have a home for prone riding surfers where they exchange information. I mostly lean toward the innovation and performance interests. If you every visit here, I would love to go surfing prone with you.
Jarrett Liu
aloha n mahalo Palala, yeah’ back in my younger days I also didn’t hear much of paipo but “belly board”, it took me thirty two years to ride various size and shaped wood boards so now I carry six Paepo’o boards to where ever surf maybe.
… San Diego I hope I’ll have a chance to fly up… mahalo Palala
Stephen Newbegin
Palala = barrel
Pālala = a gift given to a chief at the birth of a child / a housewarming feast OR clear
Palalā = a low rumbling sound
Pālālā = a contagious disease
OR if you are speaking hawaii pidgin english it is a hawaiian sounding adaptation of the word braddah. If I take you to my local barrel you will thank me brother.
Jarrett Liu
brother (respect) NOT Bradah’ (punk)
. A “bellyboard” is the correct word of using just your “Belly” and your chest is arched. There’s no specific reason, it’s just that in other countries it ridden that way. UK Cornwall and Devon are proudly keeping their culture alive using their wood “Bellyboard” first before snowboard 
started in 1965.
