Joh Morris
27 May 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 916390080/
I swapped out my quad set-up for a largish keel on my paipo just to see how it went. I'm convinced that the board is more responsive. It seems quicker and makes a tighter radius turn. I haven't noticed any less hold in the 2 to 5ft surf on offer recently. This is contrary to what is written up on various sites.
Next winter I'm getting a new paipo with modifications to the shape for larger surf. Among the changes compared to my current board I'm considering fin placement optimized for a keel, or possibly a twinzer. Scrolling through the web offerings on 'twinzer' I came across the following. This is not an endorsement or recommendation, but these 'Liquid Force' twinzer wake boards look like they might work as surfing paipos.
TWINZER
Original price $919.99 Current price $551.99$919.99 $551.99
Built for the surfer that wants a fast, lively, and loose ride while still having enough bite to power through big bottom turns and cutbacks. The Twinzer features a unique four fin configuration using a small front canard fin placed just before the larger side fin. Creating a wider effective base on the main fin allowing a higher angle of attack. You will love the full body diamond tip and tail shape with a single concave thoroughout the hull of the board, finishing with a slight vee in the tail for some serious push. Sharp rails tip to tail, this board has plenty of glide speed to charge the wake, but still a blast to hang back and ride.
EPS Core with Wood Stringer
Reinforced Carbon/Innegra Top and Bottom
Single Concave Hull
Crisp Rails
Twinzer Fin Configuration: Forward Mounted Single-Tab Canard Fins and Back Mounted Carbon Honeycomb Side Fins
EVA Surf Traction Pad
Sizes: 4'2" | 4'6" | 4'10"
Martin Hallen
Make sure the toe in and cant is correct for wave surfing, not parallel and vertical as for wake boarding.
John Morris
Looks parallel in the photo.
Keith Usher
"Crisp Rails" what is that supposed to mean?
John Morris
Yeah, I noticed that wake board world has its own vernacular. There's a large selection of shapes and fin configurations, but they don't provide many specifics. I am curious how/why parallel fins work on a wake wave.
Keith Usher
you are going far faster when pulled by a boat and the turns you make are not as sharp, so you dont need the toe for tighter turns and you dont need cant because you arent on a curved wave face. Are you paipoing wakeboards? i'm kinda confused what's going on here. I ride the same paipo from 1 to 20ft. I think the only thing a bigger board help with in bigger waves is catching them, then once on the wave the bigger is just a hindrance.
John Morris
No, not a wakeboarder. Never. I just spotted this site for wakeboards that had a variety of shapes and fin arrangements. Some of them appear not too different from what some people (not you, evidently) are prone riding in surf. I like a larger paipo to allow for switching off arm paddling and kicking with flippers and getting around the line-up. I only started prone a couple of years ago after nearly 60 years of standing on my boards: longboards, then shortboards, back to longboards and nearly everything in-between. Especially in-between. I'm aiming to recreate some of the wave interactions I knew for decades, and for that, I like a longer board than others may choose. The main issue I'm dealing with riding prone in large surf, particularly the not-so-clean large surf I typically get locally, is the board wanting to skip, or hop. Whatever you call it, it's not helpful when trying to set a rail or make sections. I have an idea that the great difference in drag created by fins, shins and flippers compared to everything forward of the fins is part of the problem. It's a design question I've been exploring and I'll take input from any source.
Keith Usher
also look at it as a possible riding position problem. stand-up your knees are shock absorbers, prone our knees become our shoulders. You must lift your chest and stomach off the board and use your shoulders to dampen chop.
John Morris
good observation. Without any photos I'm not sure about my body position. I do know that the elbow on the inside rail approach that works on my boogie board doesn't work so well on my large paipo. Standing up allows for much more range of motion, including vertical shock absorbing. But kneeboarders, in comparison, have much less, and I've never observed or heard that they have the bounce problem. It does appear that they have an upper limit on size but, at 72 years old, so do I. Above a couple of feet overhead I switch to a boogie.
Keith Usher
if you switch to a boogie at 2feet overhead and can catch waves then I see no reason for the large paipo, the stiffness and added planning area is one going to add to launching off chops, my paipo is the same size as my boogieboard. if you also put thick 1/2" EVA foam on the deck of the paipo it will give some shock absorption. YOu need to be in this position as much as possible with only inner thigh and rail elbow/forearm contacting the inner rail to have a range of motion to absorb shock. No board design will substitute for this.
John Morris
I've got 1/4" of foam on the deck. During the last couple of sessions the rip was pulling me out of position and I had to paddle and kick (I switch off) constantly or end up 20 to 30 yards off the peak. I was happy to be on a 5' paipo and not a 3 1/2' boogie board. But I am now more conscious of when and how much my torso is off the board when riding. First impression is that I'm resting more on the paipo than I do on my boogie board. Good insight, thanks.
Rod Rodgers
A toed-in short length board being towed by a speed boat would whack craziness into the board as the toe-in decreases speed when planing in a relatively straight line. Toe-in and cant in surfobards is for creating speed from turning, not for down-the-line speed (which a speed boat tow accentuates).
Some of my 50 inch paipos have relatively straight parallel positions, not as much drag and still good at turning. I am also using sub-2.5" side bites and a 4.5" center fin.
John Morris
I'm not sure, but I think the Liquid Force boards are for wake surfing, not for getting towed by a speed boat. I also don't know how much turning they do, but it's bound to be less than on an actual wave. I recall that in the '60's some surfboard manufacturers offered wake boards. Never saw one, only the advertisements.
19 June 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 677660080/
Rod Rodgers
50 x 20-3/8 - center fin is 4.5 inches and 4 small runners @2-1/8 inches.
John Morris
Rod Rodgers, are those Bonzer type keel runners? Foiled one side or two?
Rod Rodgers
Those are Bonzer Runners, foiled on the outside, flat insides. The standard non - stretch rectangular non-foiled, traditional bonzer runners. Typically the foiled are removable and the non-foiled are glassed and twins. Foiled are quads, usually pair of large and pair of small.
John Morris
...and a lotta cant...
Rod Rodgers
yes. The fin box version runners come with built-in cant and the fin boxes come in three different cant levels.
Here is a photo showing the traditional version of Bonzer runners from the Dr. Robert paipo interview
Rod Rodgers
Jeff Quam rides variations of the Laguna-style paipo board and a Bonzer or two along similar lines. The Bonzeer runners tend to be forward to work in conjuction with the channels and center fin for aft. The standard Bonzer center fin is a True Ames shape. However, Jeff has opted for a taller Greenough style. In contrast, I went with a smaller center fin and all small runners.
The Jeff Quam interiew is at:
https://mypaipoboards.org/.../JeffQuam_2013-0713.shtml
Mitchell Pellegrin
The tail! When I throw a bottom turn that's the only thing left in the water. The tail
Kneeboarding at least. Don't like to fish design on a belly board. The v the water hits my balls. Doesn't feel good
John Morris
Re: bottom turning, when dropping straight down I'm probably overcompensating by shifting weight back to make certain I don't pearl. Most of my take-offs are late, so I usually take off at an angle. I've tried the boogie boarder trick of stalling in the face by spreading the legs apart on a late drop and it works, if I can remember to do it. In high speed situations where a lot of my body is off the back of my 5' paipo. it feels like the drag created by knees, shins and fins in the water wants to lift the nose. That makes it hard to accelerate out of a bottom turn seamlessly.
Bob Green
Sean Ross rode Pipeline on a wooden Paipo Nui, here's what he had to say: "I started riding at Pipe in 1972, and I learned right away that it was hard to make the drop, make the turn, and get out into the flats. The challenge was that I didn't have the projection with a paipo board when I made the drop. I learned that I had to have a tremendous amount of speed when I took off and that I had to have my angle set. I learned how to position myself so that I was exactly at the perfect place when I took off. Once I figured it all out, making the drop at Pipe was easy. The waves there break on a shallow reef close to shore, so the faces and the barrels are almost always smooth, which made it easy, too, for a paipo board. Once I made a drop, I'd bury my inside rail to make a turn and ride up into the barrel". In the photo the board is almost sideways. https://mypaipoboards.org/.../Sean_Ross_2009-1109.shtml
Rod Rodgers
NoMasTomas, a shaper from the Central California coast, started making paipo boards during the past decade. And riding them so has an inside track to paipo paramenters that many shapers do not have. He has commented extensively on skeg/fin placement on the Paipo Forums. Search options:
https://mypaipoboards.org/SearchMyPaipoBds.shtml
John Morris
Rod Rodgers, thanks for putting in the effort to compile all the opinion in that site. For me, it's an instant step into a rabbit hole.
Ray Simmons
I ride a 5 footer with quad set up but found having bigger fins at back works the best by using down pressure of my knees to crank a turn.
Mike Powell
Generally speaking, tailward and railward increases hold, all else equal.
John DeVivo
I ride a 50” board and the rear of the fin is probably 6-7” from the tail… it’s the only way I’ve ridden it and it seems to hold like it’s on rails.
John Mandybur
I like 7" from the tail for all types of wave but the rails are what I look at most for hagin' high.
John DeVivo
Your middle board looks killer. What sizes (lengths) are those?
John Morris
Not my boards, just an image I found looking for ideas. The twinzer keels in the photo have mind boggling amount of base. I ride a 61" fish shape, originally a quad, I'm experimenting with keels.
Bob Green
28 July 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 503310080/
Thomas Haugh
Bob, Love that vid! Nice bit of surfing, too. On a board that length (56", right?) you might want to push the fin cluster forward a bit, maybe 2-3". I would guess that about 2/3 of your body is on the board. Identify where you place the most weight/pressure when turning and that is where your fin's leading edge should go. This was the solution kneeboarders discovered for solving the same problem presented by the Lis fish. A little more curve in the outline would also help...maybe on your next board -tp
Damian Coase
I like that you are willing to experiment with your boards. Lots of experience in your decisions. The fins need a story all of their own. Again experimentation and improvement.
Bob Green
I'll travel down this road for awhile, then back to finless. I've borrowed a 5' twin fin, rounded pin. I'll post it after I surfed it.
Bob Green
Thanks Thomas. In the board below, it originally only had the forward fin slots. I didn't like the board and asked the shaper to put another set in further back (I just realised this is probably the first board modification so that makes 5 boards tweaked). The board went much better. Obviously a different design etc. The other thing about kneeboards, the centre of gravity is further forward. I'll soon try a curvier board. I'll post some photos of it. The next board I was thinking of wasn't going to be curvier, but more flat bottomed (I thought I posted some of Larry Goddard's design sheets but couldn't find them) . The curved board may change my thinking.
Thomas Haugh
On the red and blue board, the fin plugs appear to be parallel with the stringer, Is that so, or just an optics thing? I can see the toe-in on the yellow board. I use 1/4" toe-in on the front a 1/8" toe on the rear, unless I set the rear more towards the stringer a la McKee. Then only 1/16" or straight. fin setting is more art than science, what with toe-in, distance from rail, fin cant, the list goes on and on as you know.. Can't just stick a set of fins on and call it a day.
Bob Green
I don't have the board anymore. It was made for me to test out and eventually a friend of the shaper (Huie) took it to ride. The actual plugs look a little angled though placement seems parallel (if that makes sense).
Martin Hallen
Bob, it is possible the extra 2 plugs were placed in line with the existing ones to allow 3 fin positions as a twin fin - old (front), half back using the centre 2 plugs, or back, using the rear plugs. Or as a quad with a canted front pair so they sit out of line with the rear fins and do not disturb the flow......
Bob Green
I only used it as a twin fin, using the rear plugs. I was happy with the new setup, so never explored any further.
Thomas Years ago you recommended a Wayne Rich hatchet fin. It was just too much fin for my liking and I've never used it. I was thinking of giving them a spin on this board. Looking at the rear nubsters underneath it looks like overkill. WOuld you keep them in or take them out?
Thomas Haugh
Yes, the WR Nightmare Twin was the best twin fin set-up that I ran on a G7. It had the hold that a quad set has on the same shape, but it wasn't quite as loose as the quad. Nubsters are usually added to a quad that feels too loose, especialy in that transition from one rail turn to the another. I think that is more of an issue for a stand up surfer with a high center-of-gravity than a prone or kneeling surfer. That little bit of drift becomes part of the fun. Its not like its gonna cause a prone rider to lose balance and fall off.
Bob Green
Thanks. I don't mind a bit of drift.
Alan Bruce
You need a set of my leaf fins Bob. Turn tight & draw nice lines.
John Morris
Experimentation is still the name of the game for larger prone boards. I've moved fins, swapped fins, modified fins, modified boards, ordered new boards (4 so far) tried new ways to ride, etc., over the last few years. One conclusion that seems general is, that if there's too much volume, or rails are too fat, you may never be completely satisfied with swapping out fins. Regarding placement, I've felt that having the fins forward puts them under the heaviest part of my body (the soft middle). But I've been working on making it intuitive to bend the inside knee during a turn. That lifts the fin out of the water and applies pressure on the inside rail near the tail. Still working on that, but the results are promising.
Bob Green
Finless is my preference, this is a tangent.
John Morris
All my boards up until now have somewhat high volume to allow for switching off between kicking and paddling. I need to be able to get around in the line up. My most recent board is low volume, including much thinner rails, but I'm waiting for some energy before putting it to the test. I can imagine the new board being less reliant on the fins to hold a line steep and deep. No way would my previous boards do that. I do sometimes ride a boogie board or an airmat, so I am familiar with finless sliding.
Facebook posts: Fins AKA skegs
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Re: Facebook posts: Fins AKA skegs
12 March 2024
Sorry for the long post. Fins in prone boards are a bit of a contentious issue, some for and some against. Finless boards are definitely faster and have advantages in certain waves but for good mate Don Boland and me fins have been an important part of our prone journey over the last 6 years. Some of you have been prone surfing for a lot longer than that and have the wisdom of your experience but these are our ideas, for what they are worth.
Firstly some parameters, Don and I surf about 4 to 5 times a week in mostly reef waves of between 2 to 6 foot, although Don will charge in the bigger stuff. We are both broken kneelos who like to turn our boards in and on the face of the wave. Over time we have tried more than 20 fin set ups from singles to thrusters, quads and now twinzers. Two things have stood out, firstly, you want your fins under where the drive is on your board, the same as a stand boarder has his fins under the back foot and a kneelo has his between his knees and feet, ours are under our hips and thighs. And secondly, in order to get that pivot in your turns, the fins need to be shallow so that when you put the board up on a rail your opposite fins are out of the water. Anyway enough typing, here are some fins we are currently using or have used in the past.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 293350080/
Terry Michael Day
Keep typing!
In what board and what fin and how did it go?
What’s your current combination now Damian Coase.
Michael Lamb
Grill him Tez !!!
Bob Green
I think another factor is board length. As you are further forward on a longer boars, so are your fins. My fins are closer to the tail corners. We also a preference for smaller fins.
Damian Coase
yes the size of the board and whether you lie on it or off it makes a big difference. Both Don and I ride boards from 5 foot 5 to 5 foot 9 inches and lie on them.
Ryan Johnson
Totally Awesome thanks for the information I’m thinking about putting them on my next epoxy board to help it hold the face more. I have a good edge from the rail. But feel like I’m going to need some bite on the bigger days
Keith Anderson
As ever. Insightful and interesting
Paul Bear Burridge
Yeah what’s your current board dimensions and fin set up please
Paul Brooks
hey bear is Wayne Monroe still around? I had one of his old plywood paipos which I had a lot of fun on. It was about 3-4 ply so very flexible and I didn’t use fins as I found the rails provided good control. I’d love to get a temp… See more
Paul Bear Burridge
yes M8 he’s still liking works with his brother Mark in bookshop at Carra Markets on weekends Gold Coast drop in say hi I have a photo of his board on my iPad but Iam in India atm will send to yo when I get home end of month
Paul Brooks
Ok thanks mate
Bob Green
I believe this photo came from Paul .
Paul Brooks
looks very similar. So simple yet so effective.
Paul Bear Burridge
yes that’s it with Wayne holding thanks Bob
Bob Green
Paul Brooks, When were you riding one? This pdf is part of a website I'm working on: http://home.brisnet.org.au/~bgreen/Newsite/NSW4.pdf A couple of photos of Paul feature in it as well - which I appreciate being posted up.
Paul Bear Burridge
It’s a narrow tail compared with modern thought
Oka was a great paipo rider as well as the McNally bros
Damian Coase
Hi Bear, my current board is 5 foot 5 inches by 23 wide. 37 litres of epoxy which floats an old 97kgs cripple. Don and I have been riding quads with a small tail fin but I'm loving the four/twinzer fins Jai added to my board. So much more responsive an… See more
four fins or twinzers.
fin set up. The back of the twin fins boxes are 16 inches up from the tail. Lots of drive but oh so responsive.
Northern Beaches
Here’s my prone fins with adjustable base length.
Bob Green
From your photo, it looks like you've discovered the fountain of youth. I've tried to see if you'd sent me a description of what's going on. I did however find a great Swaylocks quote from more than 10 years ago, I should send it to yo… See more
Bill Wurts
Looks like something a Sways member I know would create.
Rod Rodgers
No contentious issues in using skegs (board fins). People all have their preferences, favorite colors, hair colors, car types.
I am a fin guy. My only finless board is a Xylem Malama Kai but I only use it in very small conditions or in victory at sea conditoins at beach breaks. I really like the speed obtained with finned boards, the speed you gain from the drive a fin can provide plus the stability. And when I find myself behind the curl in the whitewater, I can maintain an edge along the bottom and turn in the whitewater to make speed to reach the face of the wave (I can but not always!).
Damian Coase
Rod Rodgers, that's one thing that a finned prone board does well is hold a line and cut across the white water.
Mark Fitzpatrick
Fins to me sometimes like asking how many litres is the board
Jai Baker
Le connoisseur de La drive !
Bob Green
Don reckoned I've gone over to the dark side, but all those fins reminds me to to try my latest boards finless. I'd been meaning to but while trying different fin set-ups I ran out of time.
John Chapman
I have a real liking for the Hanalei fins and the FCS bonzer style quad fins shown, I favoured Cdrive fins unite a lot too, but yet to make the set up for pronism.
Damian hope you are still able to surf that little beast known as the suck at FB
Tony Cosgayon
love your fins
John Morris
18 June 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 290110080/
John Morris
More fin stuff. There hasn't been consistently good surf recently. Figuring out a board and fins is tough with just a handful of waves per session. After sideslipping with a set of Tomo Quads I swapped out Marlin keels. The ability to make tight turns diminished but sideslipping was eliminated with the large keels in the rear boxes. Slightly less area and height but much more base with keels and a feeling of less control. No surf today so I installed some home made 'canards' in the forward boxes. In aircraft there are very many variations of canard with main wing, but surfers often claim that the combination has to be arranged precisely. Looks like waves later this week.
Terry Clayton
Hi John I’m a kneeboarder and surf prone when the waves are small. I do this because one day I’ll be prone full time so I take an interest in your site. I often use the twinzer set up like your photos small fin in the front and bigger in the rear. The … See more
John Morris
I've seen photos of some wild looking Hanalei fins. Do you feel them flexing? How far from the tail are they installed?
Terry Clayton
Hi John as you can see in Joes photo the boxes in the kneeboard are a lot further up the board. If you looking at Hanalei fins look at A4c and Q5s in the CNC range solid fibreglass. Worth a look
Joe Taylor
I run my front fins at 17" foreword 1 5/8" off the rail with 1/4" of tow, rear fins 11" foreword 2" 1/2" off the rail with 1/8" tow.
But, Robin Mair has a fin layout you might want to try for his Hanalei Fins.
Robin Mair
John Morris you can find a lot of fin layouts on the Hanalei Fins website https://hanalei-fins.surf/
Hal Gant
Although I have seen them placed much further forward (Aussie?) I have used them in the traditional kneeboard placement for as many years as I have been aware of them and seen many traditional surfers use them. Infinite combinations available, but I am… See more
Bob Green
John Morris are the canards parallel to the back fins, with the same toe in ?
John Morris
Yep, boxes were installed that way. I didn't alter anything with my backyard foil job on the canards although in the photo they appear to be more toed in. Cant of canard and main fin is approximately the same.
Bob Green
thanks. Photos can be deceptive
Joe Taylor
Definitely check out Hanalei Fins , tons of us Kneeboarders around the planet use Robin Mair 's fins and love them!!
22 June 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 856365080/
John DeVivo
Effinnossumm
Jarrett Liu
Got Video
Rod Rodgers
That cant hit the spot. Hit up Josh at Cleanline Surf to see if he could loan some large Bonzer runners or knows somebody that could. I think 4 large runners or 2 large + 2 small would be ideal to try out.
What is the height and width of the base in those large canted fins?
John Morris
5.68 H, 5.21 B, 7.5 degree cant. I've pawed thru Cleanline's fin section a few times and never spotted Bonzer keels.
Bob Green
John Morris, I'd see if I could borrow some before I forked out $. I tried a pair of bonzer fins on a non-bonzer once and came in after only a few waves. The board and I wanted to go different directions.
John Morris
My experience with Bonzer runners was in conjunction with the deep concaves and center fin. I've got neither. I'm really happy with how my board is working now. Any additional fiddling will be trying to optimize the relationship between canard and main fin. Maybe some more scientific minded paipo riders out there have some input on canard foil. Stuff I've skimmed through shows some interesting and complex curves with wide points further forward than typical surfboard fin foil.
Bob Green
I've ridden bonzers as quads, but as you say there were also deep concaves. Better to test and see how it goes in a variety of conditions. I'm a fan of recycling/tinkering with boards.
John Morris
Me too. I don't have the math skills to compute anything, nor the consistent good surf to test theories, so it's pretty hit or miss. But therapeutic none-the-less and, when something improves the wave riding experience, very satisfying.
http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details ... amsoil1-il
RUTAN CANARD AIRFOIL (amsoil1-il)
Bill Wurts
Your set-up here reminds me of the Herb Spitzer “Superchargers” posted on Swaylocks.
John Morris
'Twinzer' inspired canard applications come in a variety of sizes, templates, toe-in, cant and overlap. Unlike the aeronautic version of canards, I've yet to see mention of foiling. Google Defiant Canard BL145 Airfoil for just one example of how aero's approach the foil of a canard.
Bill Wurts
There was comment that, at the size and thickness of a standard surfboard fin, the effect of foiling was negligible. Also, several felt fin thickness needed to be 3/4” for NACA foiling. With the standard 1/4” thick fin, rounded leading edge and thinned trailing edge, I would tend to agree. But IMO proper NACA foiling could have some effect. I think there may be simpler, easier variables to control. Caveat, I’m not an engineer in fluid mechanics. Just a scientist.
John Morris
I've yet to encounter overlap in aeronautic canards...
Bill Wurts
Don’t have time for detailed discussion. See “Hans” explanations about the Bill Thrailkill “Twingle” on Swaylocks. Think biplane double wing and effects on AOA (angle of attack). So many variables in Fluid mechanics, lots of guessing, especially for Surfcraft.
John Morris
Lots of guessing and even the experience is highly subjective. But dabbling is therapeutic. Cavitation (stall) in dynamic situations can be experienced even by duffers like myself. Any perception that I've reduced that keeps my interest (delusion?) going.
ka papa o hee kalo
looks like a winner
John Morris
super fun.
Sorry for the long post. Fins in prone boards are a bit of a contentious issue, some for and some against. Finless boards are definitely faster and have advantages in certain waves but for good mate Don Boland and me fins have been an important part of our prone journey over the last 6 years. Some of you have been prone surfing for a lot longer than that and have the wisdom of your experience but these are our ideas, for what they are worth.
Firstly some parameters, Don and I surf about 4 to 5 times a week in mostly reef waves of between 2 to 6 foot, although Don will charge in the bigger stuff. We are both broken kneelos who like to turn our boards in and on the face of the wave. Over time we have tried more than 20 fin set ups from singles to thrusters, quads and now twinzers. Two things have stood out, firstly, you want your fins under where the drive is on your board, the same as a stand boarder has his fins under the back foot and a kneelo has his between his knees and feet, ours are under our hips and thighs. And secondly, in order to get that pivot in your turns, the fins need to be shallow so that when you put the board up on a rail your opposite fins are out of the water. Anyway enough typing, here are some fins we are currently using or have used in the past.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 293350080/
Terry Michael Day
Keep typing!
In what board and what fin and how did it go?
What’s your current combination now Damian Coase.
Michael Lamb
Grill him Tez !!!
Bob Green
I think another factor is board length. As you are further forward on a longer boars, so are your fins. My fins are closer to the tail corners. We also a preference for smaller fins.
Damian Coase
yes the size of the board and whether you lie on it or off it makes a big difference. Both Don and I ride boards from 5 foot 5 to 5 foot 9 inches and lie on them.
Ryan Johnson
Totally Awesome thanks for the information I’m thinking about putting them on my next epoxy board to help it hold the face more. I have a good edge from the rail. But feel like I’m going to need some bite on the bigger days
Keith Anderson
As ever. Insightful and interesting
Paul Bear Burridge
Yeah what’s your current board dimensions and fin set up please
Paul Brooks
hey bear is Wayne Monroe still around? I had one of his old plywood paipos which I had a lot of fun on. It was about 3-4 ply so very flexible and I didn’t use fins as I found the rails provided good control. I’d love to get a temp… See more
Paul Bear Burridge
yes M8 he’s still liking works with his brother Mark in bookshop at Carra Markets on weekends Gold Coast drop in say hi I have a photo of his board on my iPad but Iam in India atm will send to yo when I get home end of month
Paul Brooks
Ok thanks mate
Bob Green
I believe this photo came from Paul .
Paul Brooks
looks very similar. So simple yet so effective.
Paul Bear Burridge
yes that’s it with Wayne holding thanks Bob
Bob Green
Paul Brooks, When were you riding one? This pdf is part of a website I'm working on: http://home.brisnet.org.au/~bgreen/Newsite/NSW4.pdf A couple of photos of Paul feature in it as well - which I appreciate being posted up.
Paul Bear Burridge
It’s a narrow tail compared with modern thought
Oka was a great paipo rider as well as the McNally bros
Damian Coase
Hi Bear, my current board is 5 foot 5 inches by 23 wide. 37 litres of epoxy which floats an old 97kgs cripple. Don and I have been riding quads with a small tail fin but I'm loving the four/twinzer fins Jai added to my board. So much more responsive an… See more
four fins or twinzers.
fin set up. The back of the twin fins boxes are 16 inches up from the tail. Lots of drive but oh so responsive.
Northern Beaches
Here’s my prone fins with adjustable base length.
Bob Green
From your photo, it looks like you've discovered the fountain of youth. I've tried to see if you'd sent me a description of what's going on. I did however find a great Swaylocks quote from more than 10 years ago, I should send it to yo… See more
Bill Wurts
Looks like something a Sways member I know would create.
Rod Rodgers
No contentious issues in using skegs (board fins). People all have their preferences, favorite colors, hair colors, car types.
I am a fin guy. My only finless board is a Xylem Malama Kai but I only use it in very small conditions or in victory at sea conditoins at beach breaks. I really like the speed obtained with finned boards, the speed you gain from the drive a fin can provide plus the stability. And when I find myself behind the curl in the whitewater, I can maintain an edge along the bottom and turn in the whitewater to make speed to reach the face of the wave (I can but not always!).
Damian Coase
Rod Rodgers, that's one thing that a finned prone board does well is hold a line and cut across the white water.
Mark Fitzpatrick
Fins to me sometimes like asking how many litres is the board
Jai Baker
Le connoisseur de La drive !
Bob Green
Don reckoned I've gone over to the dark side, but all those fins reminds me to to try my latest boards finless. I'd been meaning to but while trying different fin set-ups I ran out of time.
John Chapman
I have a real liking for the Hanalei fins and the FCS bonzer style quad fins shown, I favoured Cdrive fins unite a lot too, but yet to make the set up for pronism.
Damian hope you are still able to surf that little beast known as the suck at FB
Tony Cosgayon
love your fins
John Morris
18 June 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 290110080/
John Morris
More fin stuff. There hasn't been consistently good surf recently. Figuring out a board and fins is tough with just a handful of waves per session. After sideslipping with a set of Tomo Quads I swapped out Marlin keels. The ability to make tight turns diminished but sideslipping was eliminated with the large keels in the rear boxes. Slightly less area and height but much more base with keels and a feeling of less control. No surf today so I installed some home made 'canards' in the forward boxes. In aircraft there are very many variations of canard with main wing, but surfers often claim that the combination has to be arranged precisely. Looks like waves later this week.
Terry Clayton
Hi John I’m a kneeboarder and surf prone when the waves are small. I do this because one day I’ll be prone full time so I take an interest in your site. I often use the twinzer set up like your photos small fin in the front and bigger in the rear. The … See more
John Morris
I've seen photos of some wild looking Hanalei fins. Do you feel them flexing? How far from the tail are they installed?
Terry Clayton
Hi John as you can see in Joes photo the boxes in the kneeboard are a lot further up the board. If you looking at Hanalei fins look at A4c and Q5s in the CNC range solid fibreglass. Worth a look
Joe Taylor
I run my front fins at 17" foreword 1 5/8" off the rail with 1/4" of tow, rear fins 11" foreword 2" 1/2" off the rail with 1/8" tow.
But, Robin Mair has a fin layout you might want to try for his Hanalei Fins.
Robin Mair
John Morris you can find a lot of fin layouts on the Hanalei Fins website https://hanalei-fins.surf/
Hal Gant
Although I have seen them placed much further forward (Aussie?) I have used them in the traditional kneeboard placement for as many years as I have been aware of them and seen many traditional surfers use them. Infinite combinations available, but I am… See more
Bob Green
John Morris are the canards parallel to the back fins, with the same toe in ?
John Morris
Yep, boxes were installed that way. I didn't alter anything with my backyard foil job on the canards although in the photo they appear to be more toed in. Cant of canard and main fin is approximately the same.
Bob Green
thanks. Photos can be deceptive
Joe Taylor
Definitely check out Hanalei Fins , tons of us Kneeboarders around the planet use Robin Mair 's fins and love them!!
22 June 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 856365080/
John DeVivo
Effinnossumm
Jarrett Liu
Got Video
Rod Rodgers
That cant hit the spot. Hit up Josh at Cleanline Surf to see if he could loan some large Bonzer runners or knows somebody that could. I think 4 large runners or 2 large + 2 small would be ideal to try out.
What is the height and width of the base in those large canted fins?
John Morris
5.68 H, 5.21 B, 7.5 degree cant. I've pawed thru Cleanline's fin section a few times and never spotted Bonzer keels.
Bob Green
John Morris, I'd see if I could borrow some before I forked out $. I tried a pair of bonzer fins on a non-bonzer once and came in after only a few waves. The board and I wanted to go different directions.
John Morris
My experience with Bonzer runners was in conjunction with the deep concaves and center fin. I've got neither. I'm really happy with how my board is working now. Any additional fiddling will be trying to optimize the relationship between canard and main fin. Maybe some more scientific minded paipo riders out there have some input on canard foil. Stuff I've skimmed through shows some interesting and complex curves with wide points further forward than typical surfboard fin foil.
Bob Green
I've ridden bonzers as quads, but as you say there were also deep concaves. Better to test and see how it goes in a variety of conditions. I'm a fan of recycling/tinkering with boards.
John Morris
Me too. I don't have the math skills to compute anything, nor the consistent good surf to test theories, so it's pretty hit or miss. But therapeutic none-the-less and, when something improves the wave riding experience, very satisfying.
http://airfoiltools.com/airfoil/details ... amsoil1-il
RUTAN CANARD AIRFOIL (amsoil1-il)
Bill Wurts
Your set-up here reminds me of the Herb Spitzer “Superchargers” posted on Swaylocks.
John Morris
'Twinzer' inspired canard applications come in a variety of sizes, templates, toe-in, cant and overlap. Unlike the aeronautic version of canards, I've yet to see mention of foiling. Google Defiant Canard BL145 Airfoil for just one example of how aero's approach the foil of a canard.
Bill Wurts
There was comment that, at the size and thickness of a standard surfboard fin, the effect of foiling was negligible. Also, several felt fin thickness needed to be 3/4” for NACA foiling. With the standard 1/4” thick fin, rounded leading edge and thinned trailing edge, I would tend to agree. But IMO proper NACA foiling could have some effect. I think there may be simpler, easier variables to control. Caveat, I’m not an engineer in fluid mechanics. Just a scientist.
John Morris
I've yet to encounter overlap in aeronautic canards...
Bill Wurts
Don’t have time for detailed discussion. See “Hans” explanations about the Bill Thrailkill “Twingle” on Swaylocks. Think biplane double wing and effects on AOA (angle of attack). So many variables in Fluid mechanics, lots of guessing, especially for Surfcraft.
John Morris
Lots of guessing and even the experience is highly subjective. But dabbling is therapeutic. Cavitation (stall) in dynamic situations can be experienced even by duffers like myself. Any perception that I've reduced that keeps my interest (delusion?) going.
ka papa o hee kalo
looks like a winner
John Morris
super fun.
- bgreen
- Big Wave Charger
- Posts: 1394
- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:17 pm
- City: Brisbane
- State or Province: Qld
- Country: Oz
- Contact:
Re: Facebook posts: Fins AKA skegs
Damian Coase
14 August 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 056025080/
Rod Rodgers
Is it the board surface, fin plugs or the fins providing cant? Any idea how much combined cant?
Mike Jax
Have quads twinzers on both my paipos. Love em.
Roger Harrell
Back in the day my Hynson Twinzer fish with my Kane Garden 9'0" twinzer longboard in the background
Joe Taylor
Robin Mair of Hanalei Fins makes the best fins ever!!
They especially good on Kneeboards big time!!
Bob Green
How tall are they?
John Morris
This post ran earlier and someone provided the dims. Not very tall and not very canted as I recall. Maybe the info is on the Hanalei website.
Damian Coase
yes they are quite small, 2.and three quarters of an inch tall. Being an fcs one base the cant is determined by the plug positioning.
John Morris
Are those fcs bases? I don't recognize them. But they are mounted close to the rail so maybe the small size is enough? Pretty sure I'd go sideways with similar fins in my boards.
Damian Coase
the boxes are Moddi and the twinsets is in a single fcs plug. I can find out the cant angle of the Moddi box if you want. The fins, especially with the twinzer, are fine up to 4 to 5 foot. Then I put slightly larger rear fins in. The twinsets have been a game changer since I started using them. You just need two fcs plugs put in your board. Give it a go.
John Morris
I'm currently riding a twin plus canards fin arrangement in quad boxes and it's working well for me. The relationship between large main fin at 8 degrees and the canard (modified by hand) at ~7 degrees may not be ideal. I can't easily achieve the overlap seen in most twinzers. Future boards will have an fcs plug installed in twinzer appropriate location.
Bob Green
To quote Thomas Haugh who may be still posting: "I use 1/4" toe-in on the front a 1/8" toe on the rear, unless I set the rear more towards the stringer a la McKee. Then only 1/16" or straight. ... fin setting is more art than science, what with toe-in, distance from rail, fin cant, the list goes on and on as you know.. Can't just stick a set of fins on and call it a day." I know why I like finless.
John Morris
yep, gets complicated quick. It looks like my boxes were set with toe-in the same for main fin and trailer for a quad. I'm skeptical that the people proposing a 'correct' Twinzer arrangement went through all the possible combinations. With cant, fin size, fin shape, fin overlap, toe-in, distance from rail- the number of combinations quickly reaches the thousands I predict (my math muscle is flabby).
Bob Green
4 way fin systm. Not readily available but maker still has some in Oz. https://www.youtube.com/@4WayFinSystem
Damian Coase
It's interesting to compare a modern twinzer fin with a 40 year old Friar Tuck model. Peter Ware was ahead of the times.
John Morris
How big is your board? Enough float to arm paddle efficiently?
Elijah Baley
31 August 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 667185080/
Mike Jax
Yes, as a quad. Just the right about of hold and looseness.
Roger Harrell
Trailers on my quad
Trailer on my 5 fin
Trailer on my twinnie
Firm believer in the nubster
Jon Kwon
Yes on a 8’4” quad sup.
Vektorsystems.com
John Morris
It would depend on what kind of wave you ride and how you ride it.
Andy Bick
I like them!
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-gEA7_tLov/...
Couldn’t make the meet this morning but managed to a session with my nephew at the home break this afternoon.
Rod Treece
If I’m surfing a point break in one direction I put the little one on the cutback side
Rod Rodgers
Yes, I use small fins on my 50" paipos. The 3-fin boards generally use turbo thruster side bites nd my 5-fin bonzers use 4 small bonzer runners. All the boards use basically the same 4-5/8" center fin. Elijah Baley, I can't really tell the approximate height of your fins--how tall and how long is the base of the larger fin? Are they one-side-foiled? Do they have built-in cant?
If I increase to a 3-inch tall side bite with any base at all I can feel it fighting me when turning off the top of the wall, no problem with the 2 to 2-1/2 inch fins.
Peter Stolpe
Skip Frye always believed people used too much fin, and is more a believer in smaller fins. Having ridden prone and kneelo, the smaller fins do hold so long as the rails engage, and if not, swim fins, hands, legs, and body English do the rest. Try it, have fun, and enjoy the drift and possibilities! Great question!
Peter Johnson
Ever since the clever Cambell bro’s offered us bonzers in 1970…I’ve been a really big fan..and now the fruit of the loins is making even more rad and beautiful Bonzer sticks .
Haven’t fully tested this little mini beast...
My longboard has nubs…but no concaves,and a long centre finbox…
Damian Coase
Yes Big Don Boland and I have been using various small quad and twinzer set ups. The lastest Hanalei fins are good for this as are some of the Modii models available from Sanded Australia .
May be an image of surfboard and text
The twinzers are really worth trying, very fast and manoeuvreable
Rod Rodgers
Nubster and Small Bonzer Runner.
Rod Rodgers
Centers
Turbo Thruster overlaying Vektor single plug. Turbo Thruster is foils, plastic molded, slight flex. Vektor is fiberglass.
14 August 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 056025080/
Rod Rodgers
Is it the board surface, fin plugs or the fins providing cant? Any idea how much combined cant?
Mike Jax
Have quads twinzers on both my paipos. Love em.
Roger Harrell
Back in the day my Hynson Twinzer fish with my Kane Garden 9'0" twinzer longboard in the background
Joe Taylor
Robin Mair of Hanalei Fins makes the best fins ever!!
They especially good on Kneeboards big time!!
Bob Green
How tall are they?
John Morris
This post ran earlier and someone provided the dims. Not very tall and not very canted as I recall. Maybe the info is on the Hanalei website.
Damian Coase
yes they are quite small, 2.and three quarters of an inch tall. Being an fcs one base the cant is determined by the plug positioning.
John Morris
Are those fcs bases? I don't recognize them. But they are mounted close to the rail so maybe the small size is enough? Pretty sure I'd go sideways with similar fins in my boards.
Damian Coase
the boxes are Moddi and the twinsets is in a single fcs plug. I can find out the cant angle of the Moddi box if you want. The fins, especially with the twinzer, are fine up to 4 to 5 foot. Then I put slightly larger rear fins in. The twinsets have been a game changer since I started using them. You just need two fcs plugs put in your board. Give it a go.
John Morris
I'm currently riding a twin plus canards fin arrangement in quad boxes and it's working well for me. The relationship between large main fin at 8 degrees and the canard (modified by hand) at ~7 degrees may not be ideal. I can't easily achieve the overlap seen in most twinzers. Future boards will have an fcs plug installed in twinzer appropriate location.
Bob Green
To quote Thomas Haugh who may be still posting: "I use 1/4" toe-in on the front a 1/8" toe on the rear, unless I set the rear more towards the stringer a la McKee. Then only 1/16" or straight. ... fin setting is more art than science, what with toe-in, distance from rail, fin cant, the list goes on and on as you know.. Can't just stick a set of fins on and call it a day." I know why I like finless.
John Morris
yep, gets complicated quick. It looks like my boxes were set with toe-in the same for main fin and trailer for a quad. I'm skeptical that the people proposing a 'correct' Twinzer arrangement went through all the possible combinations. With cant, fin size, fin shape, fin overlap, toe-in, distance from rail- the number of combinations quickly reaches the thousands I predict (my math muscle is flabby).
Bob Green
4 way fin systm. Not readily available but maker still has some in Oz. https://www.youtube.com/@4WayFinSystem
Damian Coase
It's interesting to compare a modern twinzer fin with a 40 year old Friar Tuck model. Peter Ware was ahead of the times.
John Morris
How big is your board? Enough float to arm paddle efficiently?
Elijah Baley
31 August 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 667185080/
Mike Jax
Yes, as a quad. Just the right about of hold and looseness.
Roger Harrell
Trailers on my quad
Trailer on my 5 fin
Trailer on my twinnie
Firm believer in the nubster
Jon Kwon
Yes on a 8’4” quad sup.
Vektorsystems.com
John Morris
It would depend on what kind of wave you ride and how you ride it.
Andy Bick
I like them!
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-gEA7_tLov/...
Couldn’t make the meet this morning but managed to a session with my nephew at the home break this afternoon.
Rod Treece
If I’m surfing a point break in one direction I put the little one on the cutback side
Rod Rodgers
Yes, I use small fins on my 50" paipos. The 3-fin boards generally use turbo thruster side bites nd my 5-fin bonzers use 4 small bonzer runners. All the boards use basically the same 4-5/8" center fin. Elijah Baley, I can't really tell the approximate height of your fins--how tall and how long is the base of the larger fin? Are they one-side-foiled? Do they have built-in cant?
If I increase to a 3-inch tall side bite with any base at all I can feel it fighting me when turning off the top of the wall, no problem with the 2 to 2-1/2 inch fins.
Peter Stolpe
Skip Frye always believed people used too much fin, and is more a believer in smaller fins. Having ridden prone and kneelo, the smaller fins do hold so long as the rails engage, and if not, swim fins, hands, legs, and body English do the rest. Try it, have fun, and enjoy the drift and possibilities! Great question!
Peter Johnson
Ever since the clever Cambell bro’s offered us bonzers in 1970…I’ve been a really big fan..and now the fruit of the loins is making even more rad and beautiful Bonzer sticks .
Haven’t fully tested this little mini beast...
My longboard has nubs…but no concaves,and a long centre finbox…
Damian Coase
Yes Big Don Boland and I have been using various small quad and twinzer set ups. The lastest Hanalei fins are good for this as are some of the Modii models available from Sanded Australia .
May be an image of surfboard and text
The twinzers are really worth trying, very fast and manoeuvreable
Rod Rodgers
Nubster and Small Bonzer Runner.
Rod Rodgers
Centers
Turbo Thruster overlaying Vektor single plug. Turbo Thruster is foils, plastic molded, slight flex. Vektor is fiberglass.
- Ted
- Big Wave Charger
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:02 pm
- City: Las Vegas
- State or Province: Nevada
- Country: USA
- Interests: HPD, Austin 50", Xylem 47"
Re: Facebook posts: Fins AKA skegs
Rod,
Are those turbo thrusters still available? I couldn't find them last time I looked.
ted
Are those turbo thrusters still available? I couldn't find them last time I looked.
ted
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