Finless or Not?

[rodndtube]

Who said that?

"...the turning problem became bigger with the size of the board; a prone surfer was compelled
to drag one foot in the water on the inside of the turn, and this only contributed to loss of
forward speed. If standing, he had to drag an arm over the side, and with the same result of diminishing momentum."
- Duke Kahanamoku

[krusher74]

I Have probably said this before somewhere but anywho.

I stole tom wegners design for the bottom of my finless paipo, so i dont have a fin in the traditional sense, but i do have something doing effectively the same job, see on this video the bit at 42secs about traction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxjeyrIUgqY

[rodndtube]

Answer: Duke Kahanamoku.

Krusher, you used the key word there: traction. Traction defined: Adhesive friction, as of a wheel on a track or a tire on a road.

Which brings me around to my original question about frictionless boards and the implication that fins (skegs) add a significant element of friction (loss of speed) and the relative attributes of trackability vs. speed. The other element is the one that the Duke mentions above about turning with skegless boards.

[bgreen]

Rod,

The boards Duke was talking about were a particular type of board. Finless alaia have been ridden at Waimea. Remember all those old photoss and films with finned boards dropping out of the sky at Waimea. Its a comparison of onions and bananas.

Fins are only one factor, when it comes to the issue of speed. Larry Goddard will tell you the fastest board he knows is Harry Akisadas finless boards. Larry', however, chooses to ride a finned board because he i's seeking a different experience.

Bob'

[Cuttlefish]

Hey Bob,
Just got my More 4'2" back with new plugs added forward of my triple plugs back on the tail.
Also a hard resin edge added to the rail most of its length where before it had a chine.
Due to the deep double concaves the forward plugs I had added if I put normal fcs fins in them they cant the fins inwarda.
No matter as I had them put in to run larger fcs bonzer side runners which have enough cant to sit properly.
Then I have tried a few different rear fin combos with the front bonzers.
A set of keels I made from cutting down M7 glass flexs.
Also tried Webber fcs curves and a fibreglass Indo controllers keel fin.
All of them didn't quite get the hold I wanted on steeper faces.
Finally tried a set of g-tf1 carbon twins which are similar to a set of MR tfx twins.
Bingo...the extra height of the fins gave me the hold I was looking for.
If this had failed the next step was to reduce the bulk of the rails to gain the hold.
So the fins were able to get the hold and no percieved speed loss.

[rodndtube]

Rod,

The boards Duke was talking about were a particular type of board. Finless alaia have been ridden at Waimea. Remember all those old photoss and films with finned boards dropping out of the sky at Waimea. Its a comparison of onions and bananas.

Fins are only one factor, when it comes to the issue of speed. Larry Goddard will tell you the fastest board he knows is Harry Akisadas finless boards. Larry', however, chooses to ride a finned board because he i's seeking a different experience.

Bob'

I am still awaiting for a response to the question first posed. Mostly what I have read are defenses of frictionless and assertions by the finless/wood community that fins do not add a different quality or dimension.

Duke's statement holds water... plopping a swim fin in the water for a turn creates friction and a loss of speed. Regardless of the board type.

[OG-AZN]

I went back and read the 1st post. Ok, I would assert that a finless prone board is just as capable as a prone board with fins when you're talking about boards of comparable overall dimensions, and 4ft or under in length. I'd go so far as to say the finless board has an edge in that comparison. Once you start increasing the length of the board beyond around 44-48", I'd say the finned board has the advantage for the average size rider. If you're talking about stand up riding, fins win. Even though some guys can rip on alaias, "blackball beaters", skimboards, giant hulls, etc, fins obviously make stand up riding easier for the masses; and clearly the top level stand up riding done with fins exceeds that of the finless examples.

[SJB]

What OG-AZN describes makes the best sense to me. I would suggest another possible element.....the thickness of the board.
Boogie boards and Austins are thicker than wooden boards and accordingly add more flotation.....and given that they have a less knife like edge. I find the fins help alleviate the slip and slide toward shore on a turn and such. I believe Rod used the term "traction" and I get that from the fin(s).
The wood boards have a thinner knife like edge which may offer similar turning traction without a fin.
Or not?

[Atlantasurfer]

I go both ways. (don't tell my mom)!

That's a joke I usually break out when people start debating skis and snowboards, but I think it's appropriate here.

I don't have an answer for Rod's original question, and I would never consider myself an expert on board design (or surfing, for that matter).
But, I have recently become a convert of the fin and fiberglass paipo.

Trimming down the line certainly feels faster on a wooden alaia style board, but in bigger, harder to catch waves, the thicker finned boards really shined. Even if you lose a touch of speed, the ability to cut back quicker upped my "smiles per hour" quotient. Maybe it's laziness on my part, but it was just funner...


That being said, my finless plywood paipo is still going to be my go-to 90% of the time. It excels at the sand bar breaks I usually ride. But I won't take it to Central America or the Caribbean

[spudnut]

There seems to be a movement asserting that finless boards are every bit as capable as finned boards.

576075_159667017525156_971047477_n[1].jpg

Many in the wood bellyboard community also make this assertion. I remain unconvinced. Granted, very thin rails on a 1/4 inch to 3/4 inch wood board possess edge holding capability and the boards can glide. But does a finless board rider have the same range of waveriding capabilities as a board with fins?

Friendly chatter and discussion invited.
[Caveat: Mats, handboards, paipos/bellyboards/bodyboards of all types... elephant guns... all good.]

I believe that this was the first question asked. Does a cyclist have the same range of riding capabilities on a 2 wheel bicycle as one with training wheels?

[bgreen]

All,

Duke’s quote has to be put into context – how many finless boards these days are turned by dragging a foot. Not too many would be my guess. Body positioning, leverage and weight distribution would be used more frequently.

Yesterday, I was going pretty fast, and went over a ledge on a choppy wave to get into a second section and the board bounced and I hit my chin on the deck and ended up with an ugly cut lip. This was my first wave at a spot I hadn’t surfed before. Later, I regretted not bringing my Galera nofin which would have handled this wave much better. Another scenario, where I wished I had been riding a finless board was when I knocked all three of malaroo’s fins out riding over a shallow rock bottom. So when the discussion concerns capability over a range of situations, it ends up being personal preference, depending on the range of waves ridden. If I could only own one board, it would be a Galera nofin. Not because it is the fastest board or because it turns best, but because it can ride anything I’d go out in and duckdives like a submarine.

Cuttlefish – one day I’ll have to make it up your way and see your board in action.

Maybe the question should really be, not whether finned/non-finned boards have the capability to ride a wider range of conditions, but for person X who likes to ride X type of waves in X way, what type of board is best.

Bob

[rodndtube]

Bob, the dragging of a foot is common to prone riding craft in today's age just as it was an essential tool for turning back in the finless days of Duke. Many bodyboarders use a swim fin as a major assist in turning and as a control assist on the wave.

Sorry about the shallow reef situation... "blame the rider, not the board!"

I agree about the personal tastes and preferences aspect. But the "debate" seems to be one-sided.

P.S. You should see the newest addition to my skeg quiver--- it sports a 90 degree angle! Can't imagine what the condition the rest of the board would have been in if not for the "safety valve" kicking into action... especially my knee.

[bgreen]

Hello Rod,

I wasn't thinking of boogie boarders in terms ofthe dragging a leg - krusher or one of the guys with a background in boogie boards might have more to say on this aspect. It would be interesting to hear if the wood boards guys here use this method much. I'll check out the footage I have to see where my fins are when I turn.

The damage to malaroos board was rider fault, I was so used to skimming over shallow reefs finless I didn't even think about fins. My next board is being made by malcom campbell, but I'm also thinking of a wider nofin design.

When you talk about a one-sided debate, I think what you may be responding to is a marketing campaign. Finless boards ride differently, if you go get the exact same experience from a finned board, why would anyone bother putting fins on a board. cuttlefish's experience also highlights fins aren't fins - I think one appeal of finless boards boards is their simplicity.

Bob

[Cuttlefish]

Btw Bob,
The combination of adding the hard edge along the rail and then using the bonzer side runners (larger ones) in the front plugs and then a gtf-1 (carbon twin like a MR tfx) in the rear plugs so the fins are working as a twinzer worked very well.
In barreling waves I was able to climb back up the face where previously I was side slipping and then keep a high line in the pocket.
Success.
Those who ride finless will be horrified by the amount of fin area I am running but its worked in the size waves I am riding and that's what matters.
I can email you a pic of the fin set up.

[bgreen]

Cuttlefish,

I'd be interested to see the photos and hear what waves you are ridding it in.

Bob

[Cuttlefish]

Hi Bob,
Pm me your email add please.
Had it but can't locate it.
Rode the board at "the Bluff" at Alex in a nice new 2-3' swell.
Paddled out amongst the usual thick crop of longboarders.
Managed to get quite a few waves by being patient and snatching ones where I could out from under their noses.
Too funny watching their faces as I high line speed runs high on the wall to beat sections that would normally beat them.
Got a great, solid set wave out at "the corner" to come in on.
The fins and rails did their job and again and the speed was such a great feeling when I knew I had control rather than a potential side slip down the face.

[krusher74]

Hello Rod,

I wasn't thinking of boogie boarders in terms ofthe dragging a leg - krusher or one of the guys with a background in boogie boards might have more to say on this aspect. It would be interesting to hear if the wood boards guys here use this method much. I'll check out the footage I have to see where my fins are when I turn.

The damage to malaroos board was rider fault, I was so used to skimming over shallow reefs finless I didn't even think about fins. My next board is being made by malcom campbell, but I'm also thinking of a wider nofin design.

When you talk about a one-sided debate, I think what you may be responding to is a marketing campaign. Finless boards ride differently, if you go get the exact same experience from a finned board, why would anyone bother putting fins on a board. cuttlefish's experience also highlights fins aren't fins - I think one appeal of finless boards boards is their simplicity.

Bob

The dragging of swim fins as a bodyboarder is not something your conscious of when riding a boogie board although its going on all the time. Is kind of like how you twist an shape your body when bodysurfing,

Its interesting that in the paipo world 50% ride finned?, and then look at bogie boarding where its 99.9% finless.

My finless paipo also has a much better rail hold that a boogie board.

[Nels]

After watching "bodyboarding" since its inception it seems to me that the original design came out astonishingly "final". Significant improvements have been made with design and materials and construction methods since the original kit boards, but a modern bodyboard would be instantly recognizeable to somebody from 1972. As with anything there are limitations. The biggest one for bodyboards is the use of fins on the board- they didn't add anything to the bodyboard experience when they were first introduced and they don't add much now after 40 years of increased fin and bodyboard design knowledge. There's a reason Morey called them "vacum track rails"...they don't want to slide out. On the other hand, hard surfcraft do seem to have that tendancy. If that isn't something one wants from a design, some kind of fin or fins can help. Use of swimfins to replace that can allow slidy finless prone surfcraft to hold (easier on smaller board).

Ah, the joys of toys...

Nels

[krusher74]

After watching "bodyboarding" since its inception it seems to me that the original design came out astonishingly "final". Significant improvements have been made with design and materials and construction methods since the original kit boards, but a modern bodyboard would be instantly recognizeable to somebody from 1972. As with anything there are limitations. The biggest one for bodyboards is the use of fins on the board- they didn't add anything to the bodyboard experience when they were first introduced and they don't add much now after 40 years of increased fin and bodyboard design knowledge. There's a reason Morey called them "vacum track rails"...they don't want to slide out. On the other hand, hard surfcraft do seem to have that tendancy. If that isn't something one wants from a design, some kind of fin or fins can help. Use of swimfins to replace that can allow slidy finless prone surfcraft to hold (easier on smaller board).

Ah, the joys of toys...

Nels

Yeah it was a bordom within the choice of bodyboards that led me into paipos where i could explore different shapes, the bodyboard designers seen to concentrate all there time on materials/flex with the only shape concern being the rail curve, I have never seen a paipo/surfboard, with the bottom shape of a bodyboard.

I would be interested to try my own paipo design in a custom bodyboard,maybe i will get toobs bodyboards to make me one up one day

[Nels]

Morey's Swizzle incorporated bodyboard design into standup surfboards...at least rails. Brilliant thinker and craftsman, inventor and builder....a true visionary. The contemporary world of standup surfing, of course, does not value any of those things.

http://www.catchsurf.com/index.php/swiz ... board.html