Facebook; John Morris
Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2024 2:55 am
October 2022
18 July2023
August 30, 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 647250080/
Still developing the prone skill set, including dialing in equipment. As I've dropped volume late take-offs become more critical, as barrel sections and cover-ups become more manageable. Do other folks arm paddle into waves and, if so, do you often take off at an angle 'under the hood'? I often encounter fin drift when I do that, which can be fun but also can slow me down when I need to accelerate down the line.
I can't say I've knowingly dealt with the 'foam ball' in the shack, maybe that only occurs in bigger, hollower waves than I ride. Anyone here have experience dealing with the pesky foam ball? Is it less of an issue when riding prone?
Bob Green
How big are your fins? It may be that you are too far forward and the fins disengage. I get some drift on the takeoff when riding certain boards finless. I kick into waves but may assist things along with a one arm stroke.
John Morris
I switch fins around, currently running large keel fins with added (self shaped, experimental) narrow upright trailers. To arm paddle in I need to be pretty far forward, which leads to drift. Getting down the line quickly is more of an issue on smaller waves as there's less face to maneuver on and less energy to tap into to get up to speed. If I'm in position to drop in early on a wave with some size I'll kick in and drop straight, or nearly straight, down the face. Trying to broaden my options in waves where I might be too far inside, too far back, or the wave is too small or moving too fast to casually 'drop' in. That's when I try to 'drive' in by taking an steep and deep angle. Latest board (pictured) promises to handle better behind the curtain, but I wonder about the foam ball. Just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not contributing to my fins disengaging during tunnel vision.
Bob Green
sounds like this is an arm paddle position relative to your fin position issue. You could try leaning on the rail a bit more when taking off. The drift is likely to be at the start of the takeoff.
John Morris
It can happen at any time during the ride. Sometimes I lay on the rail too much and end up pulling through the face unintentionally. I realize some of these 'kook out' issues are a matter of gaining experience, but also know that changes in equipment affect what's happening in the curl. Matching my intuitive reactions to situations is part of fun, as is continuing to adapt the boards, including fins. Some folks might nail it right away with a board off the rack, but I've long been interested in equipment that few others are using. In the current case it's a paipo in the 5' range.
Bob Green
I've experienced what you describe, particularly on one finless board. Mainly going from hollow to a fuller section or right in the pocket. The worst time involved the board going vertically along the face being dragged by the tail. On some other waves its like the board has decided to flick off. It's primarily one board with chunky rails. It's also a slightly longer than my usual board. Post a photo of your board's bottom. I've ridden quite a few variants of this shape (for several years I rode only finless), and it is this board in particular that does this. I've put in some tiny keels but have not surfed it much, as I was going off on an another tangent and on my Indo trip, the cork was rubbing my elbows too much.
11 December, 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 422910080/
Harvey McClendon
PendoFlex?
John Morris
Yep. 4'11 by 21"
17th Feb
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 243935080/
Some will recognize the spot. This photo was from last Fall with East winds and a West swell of 6-8'. Today was cleaner with a West swell ~6' but the East (offshore) winds were a steady 20 with gusts going higher. I rarely share my favorite sandbar corner with another prone rider and I usually ride a paipo. Today I opted for a body board due to the hardbreaking and hollow waves. A visiting body boarder got many (far more than me) excellent rides, dropping in ultra late and coming from behind the peak riding drop knee. I often got hung up in the lip and floated down like a hangglider. This often put me behind and riding low on the face rather than tucking up under the lip like my drop knee friend.
A question for the more experienced prone riders. Does kicking while arm paddling down the face help to catch the wave? It doesn't feel like I'm getting any extra propulsion from the kicking while paddling in most circumstances. Is it different on an ultra steep face? Or does kicking somehow help keep the board in trim and maximize glide during the critical instant?
Bob Green
Do you ever try to sink the tail before starting your takeoff?
John Morris
that’s what I do all the time on paipo. I was riding a bodyboard yesterday because it feels safer in powerful/technical waves. Strong offshores felt like they were lifting me in an updraft even after I’d caught the wave.
Bob Green
A heavier board helps with those sort of conditions. I think the odds were stacked against you.
John Morris
yeah, it was a recently gifted bodyboard, bigger and 'higher performance' than mine. I rarely ride a bodyboard, so tried everything to get down the face regardless of less than ideal timing or positioning. I've seen surprising results with the 'one arm holding the board out front, stroke with other arm while kicking' technique. That's out with offshore winds. I've a theory that lying on the board in trim, while both arm paddling and kicking has the effect of keeping your legs and flippers more on the surface. If your feet aren't sinking, then the location of central weight bearing on the board should move...rearward, yes? I'd like to be out getting more reps, but today looks like this:
Martin Hallen
Your timing might be off due to change of vehicle... I can't help with bodyboard technique, but I try to drop in late on my 6'6" epoxy prone board, trying to time it with a one or two paddle takeoff.
Ian Anderson
if your board has plenty of volume and you can paddle it well I would concentrate on the paddle in especially if riding a longer board. The tail sink Bob suggests also helps and sometimes an extra 2 or 3 strong strokes down the face can help on more critical takeoffs, also work out where your sweetspot is for lying on your board. Save your legs and use them for a leisurely kick back out to the lineup hanging of the back of your board.
Lynn Bellomi
I usually cork my board like Bob suggested, kick and one arm paddle to get the most speed. If it's steep enough a late take off allows you to barely have to kick in then slide up to the front of the board to hit the tipping point so you drop down and across the face of the wave.
John Morris
getting positioned for shifting peaks with a strong current meant often being in the wrong spot by just a few feet. I’m wondering how others cope with critical take offs. There’s not always time to spin, cork and dig.
Ian Anderson
until Bob said to 'cork' your board I had never heard this term before in this context, it was obvious what the meaning was, I have been doing it since the early 70's but never had a word to describe the technique... but then, words don't count for much when your surfing.. the 70's single fins probably do it better than other craft, occasional no paddle take offs are possible.
Stephen Newbegin
I use webbed gloves and start with swim fins and scratch in with one glove on last kick to drop into steep faces. A part of having the ideal balanced board is your belly is balanced for paddling. I notice many boards are too thin in rear so people have to lean forward to get full planning surface. On reforms I paddle with all four limbs keeping the glide going like long boarders who can glide long distances without the wave breaking. However unlike long boarders who get pushed back on steep reforms as they jump up, I can keep momentum going and drop in. I could never do this kneeboarding.
Simon David John
That's a great looking ride
June 13
Originally a glassed poly that was too thin for me to effectively paddle and drop in. Entire board was covered in Pendo's deck pad material. Now there's more volume and flotation. It's weightier and contours/edges are altered also. For me, at least, getting float and volume (especially the rails) is central to other factors affecting performance.
John Morris
I went sideways with that fin set, unfortunately. With the added foam the rails are thicker and the fins are further from the edge. The board held better today when I swapped for twin keels installed in the rear boxes. Didn't turn as well with keels and felt less connected. More experimentation needed.
Bob Green
how about trying a more straight up fin in the rear boxs.
John Morris
I just ordered a pretty large set. I’ve got a few on hand but after going sideways with the Tomo quads I think bigger is better. The set I ordered have more cant than usual, which may help offset the fact that boxes are now further from the rail.
Bob Green
How large? I don't think they need to be over 5", but that's just me.
John Morris
The Futures Cobra is 5.6" deep, but the fin box is now buried approximately 1/4" below the rubber material that Pendo applied. Because the board (like my every previous board) is 5' long there's not a lot of directional control coming from my flippers. At least that's my conclusion regarding the side slipping I've encountered. For each board I've owned I eventually found the combination of fins that would hold in the steeps or zipping along the bottom with soup trying to push me sideways. After experiencing the tight turns on this board with the Tomo quads installed (something they offer, I was told) I'm determined to recreate that.
John Morris
I'm accumulating a sizable collection of fins.
Rod Rodgers
you might want to try a pair of large Bonzer runners with maximum cant (the bonzer fin boxes and runners each come in various cants so theoretically you could roughly range in the total cant from 15 to 23 degrees). Worse case might be removing the rear fin boxes and placing them forward of the current forward fin boxes as your center of gravity is further up on a 5-foot board.
John Morris
I've got several fin arrangements (twin, quad, tri, five fin) to experiment with before considering modifying the board. There's a Futures center fin box under the rubber that I can access if it comes to that. My fin inventory reflects my concern that anything too big is asking for trouble if I ever contact my fins in a wipeout. I've also felt (irrationally?) that fins further back are more of a hazard.
Rod Rodgers
What type are your side fin boxes?
Stephen Newbegin
I like center fins for the foundation to create flex. The outside fins I select to do the flex. The Pendo material works best to exaggerate the flex but you have to have fin box locations different than surfboards when riding prone. I was out in large surf at Wind and Sea today because conditions were horrible for long boards but was perfect for my Black Lagoon board. I was amazed how every turn accelerated me along the section even in harsh conditions that even was rough on short surfboarders. This is what a real Pendoflex is suppose to do.
June 18
More fin stuff. There hasn't been consistently good surf recently. Figuring out a board and fins is tough with just a handful of waves per session. After sideslipping with a set of Tomo Quads I swapped out Marlin keels. The ability to make tight turns diminished but sideslipping was eliminated with the large keels in the rear boxes. Slightly less area and height but much more base with keels and a feeling of less control. No surf today so I installed some home made 'canards' in the forward boxes. In aircraft there are very many variations of canard with main wing, but surfers often claim that the combination has to be arranged precisely. Looks like waves later this week.
June 22
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 856375080/
Conditions are sometimes comically pathetic when I paddle out for a maintenance session. But ya' gotta do the work. I installed the 4th different set of fins in my Pendoflex that got the full double rubber remedy. Installing these large, canted twin fins was like flipping a switch. The board now holds, changes direction and projects better than any prone craft I've yet experienced. Canards are hand foiled and not very refined, their placement limited by the box installation intended for a quad set up.
Rod Rodgers
That cant hit the spot. Hit up Josh at Cleanline Surf to see if he could loan some large Bonzer runners or knows somebody that could. I think 4 large runners or 2 large + 2 small would be ideal to try out.
What is the height and width of the base in those large canted fins?
John Morris
5.68 H, 5.21 B, 7.5 degree cant. I've pawed thru Cleanline's fin section a few times and never spotted Bonzer keels.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 647250080/
- FB_MorrisAug23.jpg (138.01 KiB) Viewed 7710 times
I can't say I've knowingly dealt with the 'foam ball' in the shack, maybe that only occurs in bigger, hollower waves than I ride. Anyone here have experience dealing with the pesky foam ball? Is it less of an issue when riding prone?
Bob Green
How big are your fins? It may be that you are too far forward and the fins disengage. I get some drift on the takeoff when riding certain boards finless. I kick into waves but may assist things along with a one arm stroke.
John Morris
I switch fins around, currently running large keel fins with added (self shaped, experimental) narrow upright trailers. To arm paddle in I need to be pretty far forward, which leads to drift. Getting down the line quickly is more of an issue on smaller waves as there's less face to maneuver on and less energy to tap into to get up to speed. If I'm in position to drop in early on a wave with some size I'll kick in and drop straight, or nearly straight, down the face. Trying to broaden my options in waves where I might be too far inside, too far back, or the wave is too small or moving too fast to casually 'drop' in. That's when I try to 'drive' in by taking an steep and deep angle. Latest board (pictured) promises to handle better behind the curtain, but I wonder about the foam ball. Just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not contributing to my fins disengaging during tunnel vision.
Bob Green
sounds like this is an arm paddle position relative to your fin position issue. You could try leaning on the rail a bit more when taking off. The drift is likely to be at the start of the takeoff.
John Morris
It can happen at any time during the ride. Sometimes I lay on the rail too much and end up pulling through the face unintentionally. I realize some of these 'kook out' issues are a matter of gaining experience, but also know that changes in equipment affect what's happening in the curl. Matching my intuitive reactions to situations is part of fun, as is continuing to adapt the boards, including fins. Some folks might nail it right away with a board off the rack, but I've long been interested in equipment that few others are using. In the current case it's a paipo in the 5' range.
Bob Green
I've experienced what you describe, particularly on one finless board. Mainly going from hollow to a fuller section or right in the pocket. The worst time involved the board going vertically along the face being dragged by the tail. On some other waves its like the board has decided to flick off. It's primarily one board with chunky rails. It's also a slightly longer than my usual board. Post a photo of your board's bottom. I've ridden quite a few variants of this shape (for several years I rode only finless), and it is this board in particular that does this. I've put in some tiny keels but have not surfed it much, as I was going off on an another tangent and on my Indo trip, the cork was rubbing my elbows too much.
11 December, 2023
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 422910080/
Harvey McClendon
PendoFlex?
John Morris
Yep. 4'11 by 21"
- FB_MorrisDec11-23.jpg (133.36 KiB) Viewed 7710 times
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 243935080/
Some will recognize the spot. This photo was from last Fall with East winds and a West swell of 6-8'. Today was cleaner with a West swell ~6' but the East (offshore) winds were a steady 20 with gusts going higher. I rarely share my favorite sandbar corner with another prone rider and I usually ride a paipo. Today I opted for a body board due to the hardbreaking and hollow waves. A visiting body boarder got many (far more than me) excellent rides, dropping in ultra late and coming from behind the peak riding drop knee. I often got hung up in the lip and floated down like a hangglider. This often put me behind and riding low on the face rather than tucking up under the lip like my drop knee friend.
A question for the more experienced prone riders. Does kicking while arm paddling down the face help to catch the wave? It doesn't feel like I'm getting any extra propulsion from the kicking while paddling in most circumstances. Is it different on an ultra steep face? Or does kicking somehow help keep the board in trim and maximize glide during the critical instant?
- FB_MorrisFeb17.jpg (42.59 KiB) Viewed 7710 times
Bob Green
Do you ever try to sink the tail before starting your takeoff?
John Morris
that’s what I do all the time on paipo. I was riding a bodyboard yesterday because it feels safer in powerful/technical waves. Strong offshores felt like they were lifting me in an updraft even after I’d caught the wave.
Bob Green
A heavier board helps with those sort of conditions. I think the odds were stacked against you.
John Morris
yeah, it was a recently gifted bodyboard, bigger and 'higher performance' than mine. I rarely ride a bodyboard, so tried everything to get down the face regardless of less than ideal timing or positioning. I've seen surprising results with the 'one arm holding the board out front, stroke with other arm while kicking' technique. That's out with offshore winds. I've a theory that lying on the board in trim, while both arm paddling and kicking has the effect of keeping your legs and flippers more on the surface. If your feet aren't sinking, then the location of central weight bearing on the board should move...rearward, yes? I'd like to be out getting more reps, but today looks like this:
Martin Hallen
Your timing might be off due to change of vehicle... I can't help with bodyboard technique, but I try to drop in late on my 6'6" epoxy prone board, trying to time it with a one or two paddle takeoff.
Ian Anderson
if your board has plenty of volume and you can paddle it well I would concentrate on the paddle in especially if riding a longer board. The tail sink Bob suggests also helps and sometimes an extra 2 or 3 strong strokes down the face can help on more critical takeoffs, also work out where your sweetspot is for lying on your board. Save your legs and use them for a leisurely kick back out to the lineup hanging of the back of your board.
Lynn Bellomi
I usually cork my board like Bob suggested, kick and one arm paddle to get the most speed. If it's steep enough a late take off allows you to barely have to kick in then slide up to the front of the board to hit the tipping point so you drop down and across the face of the wave.
John Morris
getting positioned for shifting peaks with a strong current meant often being in the wrong spot by just a few feet. I’m wondering how others cope with critical take offs. There’s not always time to spin, cork and dig.
Ian Anderson
until Bob said to 'cork' your board I had never heard this term before in this context, it was obvious what the meaning was, I have been doing it since the early 70's but never had a word to describe the technique... but then, words don't count for much when your surfing.. the 70's single fins probably do it better than other craft, occasional no paddle take offs are possible.
Stephen Newbegin
I use webbed gloves and start with swim fins and scratch in with one glove on last kick to drop into steep faces. A part of having the ideal balanced board is your belly is balanced for paddling. I notice many boards are too thin in rear so people have to lean forward to get full planning surface. On reforms I paddle with all four limbs keeping the glide going like long boarders who can glide long distances without the wave breaking. However unlike long boarders who get pushed back on steep reforms as they jump up, I can keep momentum going and drop in. I could never do this kneeboarding.
Simon David John
That's a great looking ride
June 13
Originally a glassed poly that was too thin for me to effectively paddle and drop in. Entire board was covered in Pendo's deck pad material. Now there's more volume and flotation. It's weightier and contours/edges are altered also. For me, at least, getting float and volume (especially the rails) is central to other factors affecting performance.
John Morris
I went sideways with that fin set, unfortunately. With the added foam the rails are thicker and the fins are further from the edge. The board held better today when I swapped for twin keels installed in the rear boxes. Didn't turn as well with keels and felt less connected. More experimentation needed.
Bob Green
how about trying a more straight up fin in the rear boxs.
John Morris
I just ordered a pretty large set. I’ve got a few on hand but after going sideways with the Tomo quads I think bigger is better. The set I ordered have more cant than usual, which may help offset the fact that boxes are now further from the rail.
Bob Green
How large? I don't think they need to be over 5", but that's just me.
John Morris
The Futures Cobra is 5.6" deep, but the fin box is now buried approximately 1/4" below the rubber material that Pendo applied. Because the board (like my every previous board) is 5' long there's not a lot of directional control coming from my flippers. At least that's my conclusion regarding the side slipping I've encountered. For each board I've owned I eventually found the combination of fins that would hold in the steeps or zipping along the bottom with soup trying to push me sideways. After experiencing the tight turns on this board with the Tomo quads installed (something they offer, I was told) I'm determined to recreate that.
John Morris
I'm accumulating a sizable collection of fins.
Rod Rodgers
you might want to try a pair of large Bonzer runners with maximum cant (the bonzer fin boxes and runners each come in various cants so theoretically you could roughly range in the total cant from 15 to 23 degrees). Worse case might be removing the rear fin boxes and placing them forward of the current forward fin boxes as your center of gravity is further up on a 5-foot board.
John Morris
I've got several fin arrangements (twin, quad, tri, five fin) to experiment with before considering modifying the board. There's a Futures center fin box under the rubber that I can access if it comes to that. My fin inventory reflects my concern that anything too big is asking for trouble if I ever contact my fins in a wipeout. I've also felt (irrationally?) that fins further back are more of a hazard.
Rod Rodgers
What type are your side fin boxes?
Stephen Newbegin
I like center fins for the foundation to create flex. The outside fins I select to do the flex. The Pendo material works best to exaggerate the flex but you have to have fin box locations different than surfboards when riding prone. I was out in large surf at Wind and Sea today because conditions were horrible for long boards but was perfect for my Black Lagoon board. I was amazed how every turn accelerated me along the section even in harsh conditions that even was rough on short surfboarders. This is what a real Pendoflex is suppose to do.
June 18
More fin stuff. There hasn't been consistently good surf recently. Figuring out a board and fins is tough with just a handful of waves per session. After sideslipping with a set of Tomo Quads I swapped out Marlin keels. The ability to make tight turns diminished but sideslipping was eliminated with the large keels in the rear boxes. Slightly less area and height but much more base with keels and a feeling of less control. No surf today so I installed some home made 'canards' in the forward boxes. In aircraft there are very many variations of canard with main wing, but surfers often claim that the combination has to be arranged precisely. Looks like waves later this week.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 856375080/
Conditions are sometimes comically pathetic when I paddle out for a maintenance session. But ya' gotta do the work. I installed the 4th different set of fins in my Pendoflex that got the full double rubber remedy. Installing these large, canted twin fins was like flipping a switch. The board now holds, changes direction and projects better than any prone craft I've yet experienced. Canards are hand foiled and not very refined, their placement limited by the box installation intended for a quad set up.
That cant hit the spot. Hit up Josh at Cleanline Surf to see if he could loan some large Bonzer runners or knows somebody that could. I think 4 large runners or 2 large + 2 small would be ideal to try out.
What is the height and width of the base in those large canted fins?
John Morris
5.68 H, 5.21 B, 7.5 degree cant. I've pawed thru Cleanline's fin section a few times and never spotted Bonzer keels.
here is another video from the surf mat group