https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 368050080/
Damian Coase
I'm very interested. Do you find that the finless boards are faster than the finned ones? And how far south are they stored?
Bob Green
Finless boards is part of the speed equation. Flat bottomed boards are faster as are those thin wooden boards. The boards are in northern NSW about 3 hours from home.
Rod Rodgers
finless boards have less drag but part of the speed equation with skegs is holding power and projection and turning power to create speed, and holding and turning under/in white water to create speed and in these situations the finless board is less equipped to create speed.
Bob Green
There is a reported difference in speed produced by 3 and 4 four fin set-ups, so fin configuration and placement makes a difference. Personally I have no problem with projection and turning power from finless boards, I think the difference is really in the arcs that can be made. A finned board allows you to draw tighter turns and bigger cutbacks, but I have boards I ride with and without fins and don't see a speed difference. In certain situations finless boards have less control in white water. On one board in particular, where I noticed speed loss was going from a hollow section at speed and hitting a full section where there was less edge for the board to hold onto, a momentary experience. Another situation is a fuller wave where the section collapses on you - the bonzer would just plough through, but in part that is board weight. The board itself has to be considered. If I was to try the bonzer finless I doubt it would ride well, it was made to be ridden with fins. The board below is the fastest board I own, from the moment of catching a wave it will hands down go faster than any of the finned boards. It's not a tube rider, as it has a really flat bottom and knife like rails. The addition of concave, softer rails and wings result in some loss of speed but holding power. Now and then something will go haywire riding finless but I put that down to the rider. The other issue is the wave, it is hard to get projection from weak waves, but this is a general problem. I have boards with fins I like riding but they seldom get taken out, my last few boards don't even have fcs tabs installed.
Elijah Baley
I find it depends of the wave too. Fins do help to hold and turn in whitewater. They help to generate speed in some waves. They help to draw clean lines, they allow more projections. But in softer waves with a nice pocket a finless board will fly, plus you can play with the drift.
14 February, 2024
Nick Hartigan
For every action there's an equal reaction
wonder what happens in a finless board 
Damian Coase
I don't think that there is any doubt that finless boards are faster. Everything is a tradeoff.
Nick Hartigan
hydrodynamics/ is as water water does
Rod Rodgers
yes, in a static environment a finless board is faster. But for how long (can it hold in a wave and under the soup)? Can a finless board generate speed on a turn like a finned board can? Skegs can also allow for various performance characteristics that similar skegless board designs can not do. Bottom line is what gives you the most rewarding experience.
Mike Jax
Skegs have their uses and their place in board design.
John Morris
I wonder if a belly rider inherently has less hold than a rider who isn’t dragging body parts in the wave. It’s counter intuitive, but I see kneeboarders, for example, holding in just fine with fin arrangements that I’m pretty sure wouldn’t hold for me. Even after years of experience and experimentation with fins I still unexpectedly go sideways in some circumstances. I side slipped thru a spunky little barrel this morning.
Rod Rodgers
John Morris the prone rider has weight distributed along the length of the board whereas knee riders have their weight focused in smaller zone, often near the fin location. Maybe you have seen the Vektor Systems bodyboards with fins offset to compensate for the weighting locations of dropknee boogieboarders. Fin cant also plays a role, rail shape and a lot more that I can't explain.
John Morris
Rail shape/volume is a factor, for sure, as is fin placement. I've shied away from fins mounted too close to the tail because it feels more hazardous to have their sharp and pointed parts exposed. I continue to experiment with quad set-ups and keel fins. I'll try a twinzer eventually.
Bill Wurts
Anti-coagulants (aka blood thinners). Finless…
Rod Rodgers
I love my skegs (fins for a board in contrast to fins for the feet). Going way back I was a single fin guy for my paipo which was a pin tail. As I began widening the tail the 3-fin was added and with my bonzers, a 5-fin arrangement is used.
Overall, my fins are on the smaller end having mostly settled on a 4-1/2 to 4-5/8 size for a center fin and small side-bites/runners (2 to 2-1/2 inch height). They are mostly standard fin shape. Depending upon wave conditions I might move my center fin forward or aft a half-inch on my non-bonzer paipo boards.
The fins provide directional stability and predictability and are able to create more projection and drive, at least for me and my capability level.
Stephen Newbegin
Great question. The physics and rules of kneeboarding and prone are not the same. What they have in common is being shorter than most surfboards. Kneelos have a lower profile and more compact footprint in the tube. Prone has the least profile but not compact. Surfers and kneeboarders have the common fact that they turn mostly by pressure of body parts such as feet and knees(+grabbing rail) while prone can turn with leaning with belly but using any four limbs to power and turn the board. Bodyboarders mostly are use to no fins and most just need to use their swim fins to prevent too much sliding. Because of these differences my largest focus these days is on fin configurations that would only make sense for the smallest kneeboards and prone surfing but would be useless for stand up surfers and is one of the reasons that my first Tri-fin over 50 years ago did not work on surfboards but fostered the current popular outside fins in front of the center fin. Right now my most exciting fin configuration is my "Creature" Tri-fin configuration which is designed to be fast, responsive but highly maneuverable in hollow tubes. I am still experimenting with different sizes, positions, shapes and materials in fins. When I have more info I will share what I have discovered.
22 May 2024
https://www.facebook.com/groups/paipobe ... 881285080/
Elijah Baley
Some thoughts about fins (skegs).
Recently I tried to surf (standup) my 8' foamie finless on small waves. It was super hard not to spin or side slip. I thought going prone or kneeling would make it easier, but not really, still super hard just to go down the line.
The key seems to stay low, and positioned more forward than on a finned board. I tried again another time with a cut down single fin, very small, it was still drifty but so much easier.
On finless prone boards, there is no such a lack of control, that makes me consider how our legs and swim fins dragging in the water are such important parts of the whole board design, considering the role they play.
John Morris
Agreed. After a couple years riding prone I’m still figuring it out. When in trim on my 5’ board there’s 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 feet of my lower legs and flippers in the water.
Rod Rodgers
Skegs provide greater board design freedom. And also provide more swell hold especially when in a white water section of the wave. The best wave riding stand up surfboard in the pre-skeg days was the Hot Curl design.
Geoff Archdeacon
The Dorian of slip Derek Hynd told me...
Don't turn let the board do it ...
Try it... it works!
Bob Green
There is a lot of discussion about board design, how much drift and using the waves energy versus trying to dominate the wave, are topics less considered.
Geoff Archdeacon
Derek said on boards...
Keep the planshape straighter and simple...
Makes sense to me.
Bob Green
If you think of your tail corners and rails as fins, the further forward you go on an 8' board, the less hold you'd have. I don't really know anyone who rides a longer prone board finless. Going from a hollow section to a full section and whitewater can cause problems for finless boards, but in hollow/steep waves they can shine. I find a board about 3/4 of my height works well. The longer kneeboard oriented prone boards, seem to have find further forward
Elijah Baley
Another fun experience is to kneeboard a regular bodyboard, as soon as the legs and flippers are out the water the board starts side slipping and spinning around.
George Wellor
Big fat, straight foamie rails don’t do much for responsive control. Lots of videos of skimboarders stand-up surfing their boards (cutbacks, etc.). Planshape/rail design are critical. Rails become keels/fins.
Bill Wurts
Holding the tail in place allows the rail to engage. Design the tail and rails accordingly…
Mike Powell
Don't forget the beneficial lift that properly canted single foil fins provide, once a board is at speed
Elijah Baley
My point is that 100% finless doesn't exist, there is always something to act as a fin, wether it's a skeg, a digged rail or a leg draging behind.
Bill Wurts
Top contributor
Elijah Baley https://forum.swaylocks.com/.../coanda-channel.../79794
BTW waterskiing on a single can also teach you much about holding an edge and ice skating takes it to another level.