Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:47 am

I've long been intrigued by the concept of going 'asymmetrical' with surfcraft. Lately, since my board is set up to ride as a quad, I've been taking the 'cheap way out' for experimentation...................and I'm riding the board with the two quad fins left in the boxes on the 'bottom turn' rail............and for the cutback rail, I've switched out the quads and am running one single fish fin, mounted up in the forward box.

Two fins in the water for longer, positive bottom turns, but when I cutback, I'm off onto the one, forward mounted fin, and the board pivots quicker and looser. So far, my testing has been super successful, and it's a demonstrable, noticeable difference in how the board performs, and I'm liking everything that I'm feeling and I can't seen to find any drawbacks?

I've now graduated to the 'more expensive' route and am working with my shaper to refine the board's design so we can have a full asymm template Platter shaped up and glassed in time for this El Nino Fall/Winter that all of us are so anxious about. Below is a very crude, 'first' computer modeling of kind of what we're thinking of...............but no doubt this will change as we move forward with the process. I'll keep adding to this thread as things move down the trail. It should be noted that 'my' design is completely opposite of what standup asymmetrical shapes look like. In every photo I can find, they put the two fins on the shorter rail, with all this 'heel and toe' rationalization going on. I think this is counter to what I find when I ride prone, which is quite different in almost every way from 'standup' surfing... so we're sticking with my take on things and keeping it simple: two fins to help power up the bottom turns, and a shorter rail and one single, forward fin to make things looser for the cutbacks.

It should be noted that the rendering shown below................is for surfing rights.

Let the conjecture begin!
Attachments
asym01.png
asym01.png (25.38 KiB) Viewed 5098 times

Pes78
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:39 am
City: San Diego
State or Province: CALIFORNIA
Country: United States

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by Pes78 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:04 pm

Makes sense to me if your surfing one direction all the time seems it'll work. The place where I shape out of had Donald Brink there to do an interview. He does mostly asysmetrical boards may be worth watching his interview. Google shred talks and give a look.

Paul

User avatar
nomastomas
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:30 am
City: Ojai
State or Province: CA
Country: USA
Interests: Surfing, cycling and fishing
Location: Ojai, CA
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by nomastomas » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:56 am

Hate to rain on your parade, but asymmetric design in surfcraft is intended to overcome the natural difficulty that every stand-up rider has with turning "heelside", i.e. with the back towards the wave. When standing up, leaning to turn "frontside (facing the wave) its much easier to both apply pressure, and to modulate the pressure on the rail. Turning backside forces the upright rider to shift weight from toes to heels, which is awkward at best. Shortening the rail on the heel side, changing the shape of the tail on the heelside, and/or using smaller fins on the heelside makes it somewhat easier and less awkward to turn with your back to the wave. A prone rider never encounters this problem' so asymmetric design has no benefit. Turning left or turning right requires the same physical motions, just on opposite sides of the body. The prone rider can apply pressure equally to either rail. Its truly one of the great advantages of prone riding, that along with the ability to drop in really, really late and still make the wave despite little or no nose rocker. Not all design concepts in surfcraft apply equally across all craft.

The use of a single, large center fin on a prone craft is another example of this phenomena. The major advantage of such a fin is the reduction of roll, which the upright rider, with a much higher center of gravity, has to deal with. Its true that fin(s) also provide directional control, drive and hold. But modern surf design has found the benefit of sacrificing roll stability for the greater speed, and responsiveness found in the use of multiple, short fins (one man's "instability" is another man's "responsiveness"). However for the prone rider, with an ultra-low center of gravity, instability is mute point. Why waste the drag inherent in a large fin, when smaller fins can do the job without as much drag?
"This is a paipo site...isn't it?"
www.tp4surf.com

soulglider
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:32 am
City: sd
State or Province: ca
Country: usa

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by soulglider » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:46 am

SKIFF, you go! maybe its good, maybe not, ONLY YOU CAN BE THE JUDGE! Like 29" wide. The endeavour sounds fun and intriguing.

it makes my heart glad to see someone thinking outside the box and have the willingness to try something else. for example, i like multi-fin boards ok, but i LOVE the wasted drag inherent in a center large fin. but, its just me and my opinion which i know are like a-holes, everyone knows one. but they sure seem faster to me than my multifin boards and i love the feel i get from them in turns.
deathbedpaipo.blogspot.com

skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:33 pm

Well, as my Mother used to say, 'That's what makes horse racing!'. From my experience, the design has ALREADY proven itself, as I've been surfing the board with the new asymm fin setup, and I can definitely feel the benefits. To me, it's simply a matter of wanting a setup that allows for two fins and a longer rail to help me drive off the bottom, but a shorter rail and further-up single fin to allow tighter radius turns off the top. Pretty basic math really. This whole heel and toe thing that standup guys obsess over has no bearing on what I'm doing, hence, my asymmetrical fin setup is exactly the OPPOSITE of what those guys have been doing. Hey, it's all one big experiment. What I've felt so far is pushing me to spend the money to have a complete design done up so I can explore the sensation further, and for me, that's what anything regarding 'progression' has always been about. I've had huge single fins, twin fins, quads, and now this, and each different little 'epoch' in my prone surfing showed/proved/educated me in some worthy way, so I say 'Push on!' and keep the forward momentum going. The day that I think I have all this figured out is the day I quit and take up golf.
Last edited by skiff on Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
nomastomas
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:30 am
City: Ojai
State or Province: CA
Country: USA
Interests: Surfing, cycling and fishing
Location: Ojai, CA
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by nomastomas » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:03 pm

I didn't realize that you were building a dedicated, "right-point" board, sacrificing bi-lateral performance for uni-lateral performance. What type fin do you use on the "single-fin" side? The asym guys typically use an asymmetrically-foiled keel fin with little toe-in for max drive on the toe-side. The MR twin-fin template has the same depth (5.25"), but a narrower base and less rake making it more pivoty and less drivey than a keel. But if drive on the quad side is what you're after, the split-keel templates like the Speed Dialer, Futrure Controller or DVS Quad Keel by Shaper's Australia, would be a great choice.
"This is a paipo site...isn't it?"
www.tp4surf.com

skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:38 pm

Yes, I had thought that the function of the board was obvious? I ride right about 85% of the time, so this board is dedicated to possibly improving that situation? I'll change out the fins on one of my 'other' boards so that it's set up (*fin-wise at least) for going 'left'.

For the quad fin side, I use Future's Controllers..................and on the single fin side, this is what I've been using-
Attachments
rasta fin.jpg
rasta fin.jpg (58.45 KiB) Viewed 5051 times

User avatar
krusher74
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 774
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:53 pm
City: easkey
State or Province: co sligo
Country: Ireland
Interests: Surfing, vintage cars and motorbikes
Location: Easky, Co sligo , ireland
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by krusher74 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:00 pm

Although when prone we dont seem to have have a toe or a hell side, you do have a left and a right hand, I have found being right handed that I am goofy as I have my right hand on the rail on a left and have better control. I am a much better barrel rider left.

So I would like to try an asymmetrical board with the left rail as it was a toes side and right as it was heel. This board would be for both left and rights for me. :D

Also among bodyboarders I have talked to as far as 360's go some people spin easier clock wise and some counter, I have also asked which they are better on lefts or right and so far I have not found there is a direct correlation between if your left/right handed and prefer left or right, but I know most prone right do surf better one way than the other. :?

skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:54 pm

When I was a 'standup' surfer, I was a goofy foot, and like most all goofy foots I ever met, I always preferred going 'left' if given a choice. But for some reason, with this prone riding fixation, I seem to be way more comfortable going 'right'...? Not sure what that's all about, but it's definitely something that has transpired.

soulglider
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:32 am
City: sd
State or Province: ca
Country: usa

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by soulglider » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:20 pm

Skiff, funny, growing up in santa cruz all my kneeriding/surfing was done on rights and i was a regular foot. actually, kneeriding i had a hard time going left. then i moved down here to san diego in 84 and always struggled because the best spots are lefts, now that i ride exclusively prone i love going left a lot more than right. ?
deathbedpaipo.blogspot.com

User avatar
bgreen
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 1063
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:17 pm
City: Brisbane
State or Province: Qld
Country: Oz
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by bgreen » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:57 am

Having spent a day with Skiff I can understan d the surfing right angle. I still flash on that day skimming over glass and kelp.

I vaguely recall Jeff Quam having done some asymmetrical experimentation. He'll be worth a chat if he makes it to the paipo gathering.

I mostly surf rights and can feel awkward on lefts sometimes. However, on a recent trip away I surfed lots of lefts and while it felt different in subtle ways to going right, I think I was just rusty, especially usually surfing long rights and short lefts.

Prone design is such unchartered territory. Then there is the personal preference. When riding standup boards, a friend bought a board which he hated. I rode it and loved it. He went on to ride twin fins which I hated because of the drift. So what I am now riding prone? You guessed it.

The other issue is how we ride prone. This isn't discussed. Nomo may be right for how he rides.

Well as they say - this is an empirical question. Put the theory to the test.

Bob

skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:45 am

Yep, sometimes I think there's an even wider disparity in our little paipo world as far as what guys are riding (*and defending to the death...) than there is in the 'standup' world? We're all off on our different little branch of the same tree, and taking our personal explorations to different areas. It's like we're all into mathematics, but working on entirely different problems and coming up with very different conclusions.

One thing I like about the computer designer that I work with on my boards is the super accurate level of liters-of-floatation that can be determined. We knew that carving away half of the tail was going to reduce volume, hence, float/wave catching/etc, etc..? But it was an easy manipulation of the CAD CAM to determine that skinning the deck with an extra 1/8th of an inch of foam would 'give back' that floatation, and I seriously doubt if I can even 'feel' an eighth of an inch, so batta bing, LET'S DO IT.

User avatar
nomastomas
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:30 am
City: Ojai
State or Province: CA
Country: USA
Interests: Surfing, cycling and fishing
Location: Ojai, CA
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by nomastomas » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:51 pm

Wave-directional preference does exist and is usually driven by the rider's preferred ever-day wave. I find that being "ambidextrous" when it comes to prone riding is very adaptive in the current urban wavescape. Most stand-up riders are regular-foot and prefer right-hand breaks (myself included). And while Cali is the land of right-hand pointbreaks, there are many lefts that go un-ridden (especially on south swells). I find that having the tools and the ability to surf in either direction at any time increases my wave count and fun quotient. This is particularly true if you prone ride in a pack of shortboarders. (You just have to remember who the goofyfoots are.) Prime example is a place like O'side Harbor where you can surf the left off the south jetty and then paddle over to the right off the north jetty. Ventura harbor has a similar situation, just pick the jetty. For the prone rider, I find the wave choice limitations of asym design outweigh the performance enhancements. The exception, of course, would be a wave like Pta Manzanillo in Nica, or Pavones and Boaca Barranca in Costa Rica. All three long lefts, with no hope of going right. (Ventura C St on a OH+ day is also one of those places, except its a right) In those places I might tweak performance a little by going asym. It sounds like this is exactly what Skiff has in mind. And, hmmm...with the El Nino predictions for this winter... I may have to noodle this asym concept a bit more...
"This is a paipo site...isn't it?"
www.tp4surf.com

skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:35 pm

Yes, sometimes I surf beachbreaks where both rights and lefts are coming through............and for that kind of setup, I've got a 'normal' Platter with all four quad fins that'd I utilize for that? But really, these days.............most of my surfing is done at venues where you can 'only' go right, or 'only' go left, and I know all that ahead of time..... so picking the board ahead of time is easy enough.
Attachments
Gophersnake Reef.jpg
Boathouse1x.jpg
b11.jpg
Animals left.jpg
Chambers2.jpg

User avatar
krusher74
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 774
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:53 pm
City: easkey
State or Province: co sligo
Country: Ireland
Interests: Surfing, vintage cars and motorbikes
Location: Easky, Co sligo , ireland
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by krusher74 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:12 pm

skiff wrote:Yep, sometimes I think there's an even wider disparity in our little paipo world as far as what guys are riding (*and defending to the death...) than there is in the 'standup' world? We're all off on our different little branch of the same tree, and taking our personal explorations to different areas. It's like we're all into mathematics, but working on entirely different problems and coming up with very different conclusions.

One thing I like about the computer designer that I work with on my boards is the super accurate level of liters-of-floatation that can be determined. We knew that carving away half of the tail was going to reduce volume, hence, float/wave catching/etc, etc..? But it was an easy manipulation of the CAD CAM to determine that skinning the deck with an extra 1/8th of an inch of foam would 'give back' that floatation, and I seriously doubt if I can even 'feel' an eighth of an inch, so batta bing, LET'S DO IT.
But there is also the conundrum of Volume/planing area/volume distribution :?

skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:55 pm

Like we've all said before....................it's one big Experiment. We'll build it, and then take it to the test track to see what we've come up with-
Attachments
frank.jpg
frank.jpg (62.02 KiB) Viewed 2223 times

skiff
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 am
City: Central Coast
State or Province: California
Country: USA

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by skiff » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:55 pm

All good things take time.............which was never more true than when ordering any kind of custom surfboard. Got word that my new asymmetrical board had been finished being shaped, and was now in the 'que' at Stretch's for the glassing. The process for this was...............the designer ordered up 'the same' board as my last one (he keeps the computer file on hand) and then once he got the 'shaped' blank up from Marko Foam......he fine tunes the whole board to get rid of the 'Ruffles have Ridges' surface, and then hand shaped the actual asymmetrical tail onto the board. Here's a shot of it after final shaping had been completed-
Attachments
L41 asymm Mega Platter.png

User avatar
bgreen
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 1063
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:17 pm
City: Brisbane
State or Province: Qld
Country: Oz
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by bgreen » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:56 pm

The glasser will love this board. Keep the photos coming - it can be a frustrating wait from this stage.

soulglider
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:32 am
City: sd
State or Province: ca
Country: usa

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by soulglider » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:38 pm

skiff, thats killer. i dont know why, but maybe it just slipped my mind, your boards are e.p.s.?
deathbedpaipo.blogspot.com

User avatar
nomastomas
Big Wave Charger
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:30 am
City: Ojai
State or Province: CA
Country: USA
Interests: Surfing, cycling and fishing
Location: Ojai, CA
Contact:

Re: Mega Platter 2.0...asymmetrical...?

Unread post by nomastomas » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:41 pm

Looking at the dimensions (6'3" yikes!), the wide outline shape and considering that the rider will be riding prone, I would think turning either right or left would be a chore, akin to turning a LB from the center of the board. Chopping off the left-side corner would make it easier to cutback, but what does it take to bring it back around? You speak highly of similar board's performance. so I must be missing something? Is there a lot of curve in the outline? The rocker looks fairly flat, is it? Inquiring minds...
"This is a paipo site...isn't it?"
www.tp4surf.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests