paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.

Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:40 pm

I have read this link carefully, I have drawn the paipo I had thought to 19. I prefer 18 to work better in vertical wind waves ,,, so I modified the plan to this measure, has the previous paipo's construction and a pod of Fiberglass reinforcement since I'm going to get into waves of 2m and I do not want it to split

he leído atentamente este enlace, he dibujado el paipo que tenia pensado a 19. prefiero de 18 funcionara mejor en olas de viento, verticales,,, asi que he modificado el plano a esta medida, tiene la cosntruccion del paipo anterior y un pod de refuerzo de fibra de vidrio ya que voy a entrar en olas de 2m y no quiero que parta

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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby zensuni » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:21 am

asier esnal wrote: I do not like the paipos without fins, nor the bodyboard, I hate the lateral displacements and skids


The side slipping you described might be due to the board being quite large. If you try a finless board that is narrower and longer you will see that the inside rail actually behaves like a fin as long as you slightly lean your body inside, it doesnt side slip unless you decide to (which is fun sometimes).

Having said that, I understand that fins help a lot when waves get bigger, as you can really rely on them.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby rodndtube » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:30 am

Escribe en español and I will give it a try, "to get the rocker and that flex I have to cut the wood in contraction direction to the feed, if I do not give fiberglass part by just touching it", but I understood it as needing fiberglass to maintain the rocker.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:30 am

zensuni wrote:
asier esnal wrote: I do not like the paipos without fins, nor the bodyboard, I hate the lateral displacements and skids


The side slipping you described might be due to the board being quite large. If you try a finless board that is narrower and longer you will see that the inside rail actually behaves like a fin as long as you slightly lean your body inside, it doesnt side slip unless you decide to (which is fun sometimes).

Having said that, I understand that fins help a lot when waves get bigger, as you can really rely on them.


I have not had time to try the last paipo of 18 width that I have made. but what measures do you recommend me to go without fins, if board of paulownia is 18mm thick = 0.7in?
my measurements are 1.77m high and 75kg weight = 69.6in, high and 165lb

es
no he tenido tiempo de probar la última tabla de 18 de ancho que he hecho. pero que medidas me recomiendas para ir sin fin, si el tablero de paulownia es de 18mm de espesor=0.7in ?
mis medidas son 1.77m de alto y peso 75kg = 69,6 in, de alto y 165 lb
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby zensuni » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:46 am

asier esnal wrote:
I have not had time to try the last paipo of 18 width that I have made. but what measures do you recommend me to go without fins, if board of paulownia is 18mm thick = 0.7in?
my measurements are 1.77m high and 75kg weight = 69.6in, high and 165lb

es
no he tenido tiempo de probar la última tabla de 18 de ancho que he hecho. pero que medidas me recomiendas para ir sin fin, si el tablero de paulownia es de 18mm de espesor=0.7in ?
mis medidas son 1.77m de alto y peso 75kg = 69,6 in, de alto y 165 lb


I am 1,66m, my board is a 1cm tick varnished plywood board, no rocker, flat bottom, 120x40cm. I surf small to medium size waves, so far it works pretty good, very easy to catch waves, even the small ones. It is faster than a bodyboard, especially in longboard type waves, and not too much side slipping. I have had some fun micro barrels with that board. It is basically just a flat planing surface, but it fits well with the kind of waves I am confortable to surf.
In this video I use it: https://youtu.be/EVWwCZgZnzc

I have never tried a paipo board with fins, but I did try an HPD paipo, the same one than this photo:
Image
This is the opposite of my board, it is very wide, definitely not flat (spoon shape), relatively short, I have never really understood how to hold a line with it (a lot of side slipping !). Maybe it just doesn't fit to the french beach breacks waves :D

Checkout my youtube channel, no great surf to watch, but you can see the different shapes I tried
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9mcJ4GLcnMNAIZh0emZ7LA?view_as=subscriber
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby GeoffreyLevens » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:51 am

"I did try an HPD paipo..."

Never an HPD but made same outline out of plywood once. Seemed to me that the board required huge body position shifts so that my hip was always almost right on top of one rail or the other and hand on airborne rail used to drive the weighted rail into the wave face. That way, the thin edge could act as a fin but there was a heck of a lot of board up in the air most of the time. My thought at the time was this would be what Dorothy felt like had she tried to ride the barn door in the tornado on her way to Oz. Since the waves I first tried it in were 6-8 foot face, dredging sand barrels at local beach break, my thoughts weren't that coherent though, more like, "GLUB-GLUB Dorothy! Cough Gack Oz!"
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby zensuni » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:05 pm

GeoffreyLevens wrote:"I did try an HPD paipo..."

Never an HPD but made same outline out of plywood once. Seemed to me that the board required huge body position shifts so that my hip was always almost right on top of one rail or the other and hand on airborne rail used to drive the weighted rail into the wave face. That way, the thin edge could act as a fin but there was a heck of a lot of board up in the air most of the time. My thought at the time was this would be what Dorothy felt like had she tried to ride the barn door in the tornado on her way to Oz. Since the waves I first tried it in were 6-8 foot face, dredging sand barrels at local beach break, my thoughts weren't that coherent though, more like, "GLUB-GLUB Dorothy! Cough Gack Oz!"


:lol:
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:36 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onScB4vj70I

Now I understand, we are looking for very different waves. Give me some waves like the ones in this video with few people and I am the happiest man in the world, as you can see they are usually always moved by the wind, they have a lot of thrust and a lot of water. , I am very happy in these days of waves

es
ahora entiendo, estamos buscando olas muy diferentes.dame unas olas como las de este video con poca gente y soy el hombre mas feliz del mundo, cómo ves la solas siempre suelen estar algo movidas por el viento, tienen mucho empuje y mucha masa de agua, soy muy feliz en estos días de olas
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby rodndtube » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:22 pm

Many different waves out there and many different people riding their paipo boards on them, whether it is a local wave break that a person may not venture far from or a faraway wave that is traveled to, and everything in-between. Young 15 year olds to older 75+ year olds, super fit and healthy and sluggish and chunky and everything in-between. Cold water and hot water, heavy rubber and virtually skinless, and everything in-between. Thin finless ply to thick super multi-finned EPS glassed boards, and a lot in-between (one more refrain!). And many different riding styles.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby bgreen » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:04 pm

18-20" is ok.

The no rocker issue - some rocker helps but the boards flex is an aspect. I have a fibreglass board with no rocker and it nosedives once the wave gets hollow.

Donostia - I've been there 4 times but never surfed there. That footage shows a variety of waves. The bodyboarder's wave would be better suited for a bellyboard. The fuller, slower/closeout waves would be harder on a ply board.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby zensuni » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:04 pm

Nice waves in the video !
Now I understand why you need some rocker.
Big choppy and windy waves, probably not the ideal conditions for a flat plywood finless board indeed...
A surfmat might be fun in these conditions, but if you don't like side slipping, forget it :lol:
These waves remind me this vintage paipo footage where some guys have epic rides on paipos:
https://vimeo.com/9742493
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:00 pm

zensuni wrote:Nice waves in the video !
Now I understand why you need some rocker.
Big choppy and windy waves, probably not the ideal conditions for a flat plywood finless board indeed...
A surfmat might be fun in these conditions, but if you don't like side slipping, forget it :lol:
These waves remind me this vintage paipo footage where some guys have epic rides on paipos:
https://vimeo.com/9742493

I saw that video time ago and it was revealing, actually I want to do that. I sell surfing on those waves, with gums tables around 8 or 9 feet. by circumstances of life I went to live in a town a few kilometers, I consider surfing with the paipo as it gives me great mobility, I charge it on the motorcycle and go to the water,

  I have found the meaning of my surf, really now I do not want to enter the water with a surfboard, but I aim to return to those waves, lying down and with fins on my feet, start to push myself and notice the speed pure and simple speed. that is the objective and my search

these are 2 board that I am shaping, blue is for waves of considerable size, no big waves, that is for really crazy friends but for waves of 2 to 3m

es
vi ese video hace tiempo y fue revelador, realmente yo quiero hacer eso. vendo de hacer surf en esas olas, con gums tablas en torno a 8 o 9 pies. por circunstancias de la vida me fui a vivir a un pueblo a pocos kilometros, me plantee surfear con el paipo ya que me aporta una gran movilidad, lo cargo en la moto y voy al agua ,

he encontrado el sentido de mi surf, realmente ahora no quiero entrar al agua con tabla de surf, pero tengo como objetivo volver a esas olas, tumbado y con aletas en los pies, empezar a impulsarme y notar la velocidad pura y simple velocidad. ese es el objetivo y mi búsqueda

estas son 2 board que las shapeado yo, la azul es para olas de tamaño considerable, no big waves, eso ya es para amigos realmente locos pero si para olas de 2 a 3m

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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby zensuni » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:42 pm

Nice boards, interresting fins setup, 2 parralels longboard fins ?
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:28 pm

You said it right, there are 2 parallel longboard fins. One of the big problems of the boards with a single fins is the width of the board in tail to 12 inches, if you want to have good grip, the tail has to be 14, 14.5 as much width, from there onwards the fin with the rail of the board loses effectiveness, of there are put keels so big in some longboard, with this system of fins, this problem disappears, gives a touch to the board between singelfin and twinfin that I adore

es
lo has dicho bien, son 2 fins paralelas de longboard. uno de los grandes problemas de las tablas con un solo fin es el ancho de la tabla en tail a 12 pulgadas, si quieres tener buen agarre, el tail tiene que ser de 14, 14.5 como mucho de ancho, de hay en adelante la quilla con el rail de la tabla pierde efectividad, de hay poner quillas tan grandes en algunos longboard, con este sistema de fins, este problema desaparece, da un tacto al board entre singelfin y twinfin que adoro
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby GeoffreyLevens » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:23 am

zensuni wrote:A surfmat might be fun in these conditions, but if you don't like side slipping, forget it

In my experience, 1-2 foot mushy wind waves to 6+ ft steep but not barrels, to 4-5 foot tubes, with practice and proper inflation for the waves, side slipping is almost completely optional on a modern surfmat. Had to be said... ;)
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby Uncle Grumpy » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:17 pm

GeoffreyLevens wrote:
zensuni wrote:A surfmat might be fun in these conditions, but if you don't like side slipping, forget it

In my experience, 1-2 foot mushy wind waves to 6+ ft steep but not barrels, to 4-5 foot tubes, with practice and proper inflation for the waves, side slipping is almost completely optional on a modern surfmat. Had to be said... ;)


Practice is the thing.
IMO Finless craft of most types require more patience and water time before their benefits become worth it.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:44 pm

.
Last edited by asier esnal on Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby bgreen » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:57 pm

I don't reckon you can go past: http://www.surfmats.com/

Paul posts anywhere
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:22 pm

bgreen wrote:I don't reckon you can go past: http://www.surfmats.com/

Paul posts anywhere


forgive for the inconvenience, surf mat has been a fleeting idea, I prefer the null flotation of wooden paipos. I can not assume the price you've given me, I love making my toys and try them in the water, for me it's the most fun of all

es
perdonar por las molestias, surf mat ha sido una idea fugaz, prefiero la nula flotación de los paipos de madera. no puedo asumir el precio que me has pasado, me apasiona hacer mis juguetes y probarlos en el agua, para mi es lo mas divertido de todo
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby rodndtube » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:34 pm

Dale uno con Graeme de GB. https://customsurfmats.com/ y https://www.matsurfers.com/

Give Grame a call. He will also tell you that low inflation works much better than "inflated."
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:41 pm

Does not have any model leashes? and if a very fat wave comes and you lose it? you drown? :shock: :oops:

es
no tiene ningún modelo leashes? y si viene una ola muy gorda y lo pierdes? tu te ahogas?
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby zensuni » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:45 pm

I had a krypt surf mat for 2 years, I loved it, the learning process was quite hard (that was the "side slipping" part I was referring to), but after a lot of sessions I was as confortable rinding the mat than my paipo or my bodyboard. Then the krypt mat was destroyed (my fault), I bought a 4gears flyer omni surfmat, great quality mat, but this one is slighty bigger than the krypt, so now I have to get used to again (hello again side slipping).
To my experience, mats may not look fun to watch, but are great fun to surf, it is a different glide, very subtle, kind of a "zen" thing.
The downside is that it is difficult to duck dive a surf mat effisciently, so if no channel, paddling out can be a problem (no leash). But this is partly balanced by the fact than in case of wipeout you just "bear hug" the mat, you won't get hurt.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby rodndtube » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:51 pm

Apparently wind is more of a concern than a wave, and duck diving is not easy.

asier esnal wrote:Does not have any model leashes? and if a very fat wave comes and you lose it? you drown? :shock: :oops:

es
no tiene ningún modelo leashes? y si viene una ola muy gorda y lo pierdes? tu te ahogas?
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby zensuni » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:25 am

asier esnal wrote:You said it right, there are 2 parallel longboard fins.


I wonder how this setup would work on a paipo, and in general, how single fins work on paipo boards
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby rodndtube » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:54 am

Single fins work, I rode a single fin paipo for a long time, during the late-1960s, 1970s, until maybe mid-1980s. On the other hand, the tail was somewhat narrower that what I evolved to with 3- or 5-fin setups. My single fins usually ranged from 8 to 6 inches, going smaller over time, and now I generally use a 4.5 inch center fin with two small side bites or 4 small runners (Bonzer).
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:57 pm

zensuni wrote:
asier esnal wrote:You said it right, there are 2 parallel longboard fins.


I wonder how this setup would work on a paipo, and in general, how single fins work on paipo boards


These are the first 2 paipos I did, with the configuration of 2 fins of longboard, but as I did not have money to buy so many keels, I made them in aluminum, the behavior is somewhat slow in turns, they give the feeling of boring, very reliable and safe but boring, so move to side fins looking for more fun behavior

es
estos son los 2 primeros paipos que hice, con la configuración de 2 fins de longboard, pero como no tenia dinero para comprar tantas quillas, las hice en aluminio, el comportamiento es algo lento en giros, dan la sensación de aburridos, muy fiables y seguros pero aburridos, por eso pase a quillas laterales buscando un comportamiento mas divertido
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby rodndtube » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:07 pm

The really smart people would talk about characteristics of a fin's shape, height, base length and "rake." And where it is positioned on the board. A standard long board center fin is not conducive to easy quick turns/pivoting, so it can feel stiffer. But the fin is good for projection. Even those little knubsters, with their long bases, are conducive to helping project in one's turns, those longer arching turns.

A good center fin box where one can move a fin forward and aft also provides flexibility for adapting to varying wave conditions.
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Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby asier esnal » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:26 am

I have not put the measures of the keels for not extending myself in the story, since this post is oriented to the manufacture of paipo with paulownia and polyester. but if you want to comment, i do it

first I designed some fins SF-4 PC Stretch Quad Set scaled to 4.5 high, I did not like the behavior

the fins that you see in the fiber paipos are inspired by the models of windsurfing, not surfing, they work with very interesting models that I wanted to try. Before manufacturing, design different fins in 3d to understand how the forces and turbulences they generate work. From this study I drew the conclusion that the models were close to what I wanted https://www.k4fins.com/product/zbd/ https://www.k4fins.com/product/rocket-fronts-trailers/

blue paipo, height 4.5 base 4,
paipo garnet height 5.5 base 4.5
I do not know the sweep angle. the garnet is more delayed than the blue, these designs were the ones I liked the most when making the 3d but I do not remember it. delete the file


es

no he puesto las medidas de las quillas por no extenderme en el relato, ya que este post esta orientado la fabricación de paipo con paulownia y poliester. pero si quieres lo comento

primero diseñe unas quillas SF-4 PC Stretch Quad Set escaladas a 4.5 de alto, no me gusto el comportamiento

las quillas que ves en los paipos de fibra están inspiradas en los modelos de windsurf, no de surf, ellos trabajan con modelos muy interesantes que he querido probar. antes de fabricar diseñe en 3d diferentes quillas para entender el funcionamiento las fuerzas y turbulencias que generan. de este estudio saqué la conclusión que los modelos se acercaban a lo que queria https://www.k4fins.com/product/zbd/ https://www.k4fins.com/product/rocket-fronts-trailers/

paipo azul, altura 4.5 base 4,
paipo granate altura 5.5 base 4.5
no se el ángulo sweep. el granate es más retrasado que el azul, estos diseños fueron los que más me gustaron al hacer el 3d pero no lo recuerdo. borre el archivo
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asier esnal
Big Wave Charger
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:56 am
City: Astigarraga
State or Province: Gipuzkoa
Country: spain

Re: paulownia + polyester+ fiberglass: rocker and flex

Unread postby GeoffreyLevens » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:10 pm

As mentioned above, duck diving a mat is a bugger. BUT they have easily variable inflation. Paddle out very soft or empty (swim it out) if necessary, and get under white water no problem. Then a few puffs and ready to ride.
GeoffreyLevens
Big Wave Charger
 
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:58 am
Location: Paonia, Colorado
City: Paonia
State or Province: Colorado
Country: USA


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