Which paipo for hollow waves ?

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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zensuni
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Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:29 pm

Hi there, I'm new on this forum, so let me introduce myself. I am from France, so please don't pay attention to my weack english. I'm 36, I have been bodyboarding for 3 years. Now I am interested in "shaping" and riding paipos, for some reasons I don't even understand myself. I'm not such a good bodyboarder, but I love the idea of surfing prone a little piece of wood. I live on the atlantic west south coast of France (near Biaritz), here the waves are beach breack type, hollow and quite powerfull. It is very rare that waves are too small (it happens sometimes during the summer), most of the time it is too big for me, always hollow, closing out by sections, mainly offshore wind. It almost never gently collapses like a big mountain. Here shortboards are what you would see the most, not the kind of waves that can be rode by longboards (unless sometimes during the summer).

Fortunately, sometimes it is fine for me. So I take the bodyboard, or since last summer, the paipo.
I have read plenty of great informations about paipo shaping and riding, thank you by the way for creating this web site which is so interresting for paipo riders.

My question is about the paipo shape that would suit to the kind of waves I have.
I feel like the hawaian finless "plate" design like HPD boards wouldn't be great, although I have never tested it. I assume it would be too "slow", and would struggle to grip the hollow waves. I started with a "classic" shape (belly button height, shaped like a small surf board, flat tail) that I quickly built from a pine plank, with a wooden fin glued on the back. I tested if once, actually it was ok, even though the waves were not great, but I could take a few normal waves.
Yet I felt like the fin generated drag and slow me down a little bit....but it helped to keep the rail, definitly.
Unfortunatly, after it dried, the board was kind of "twisted" so I no longer use it.
I created then a new one, bigger, larger, without fins, still from a pine plank. I plugged a leash.
Bad idea by the way, after a few "ok" little waves, I was hit in the head by the board during a wipeout, quite sure it is because of the short leash.
I felt like a bigger board didn't help at all; and the lack of fins made the board kind of unpredictable.
So, my current project is to decrease the board size, and add dual fins, hoping it will be easier to maneuver in those waves that breacks so quicly.

Would you have some advices regarding the kind of shape that would be the best to ride hollow waves, overead/double overhead, that close out in sections ?

Thanks !

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by Pes78 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:49 am

http://wegenersurf.bigcartel.com/produc ... unkin-seed

Welcome to the forum. For the waves you describe the first thing that came to mind was round. Round outline pretty much like what I posted in the link above.

Paul

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:45 am

Bonjour Zensui,

I know the coast you speak of reasonably well. I've stayed south of Biarritz a few times and ventured north on a couple of day trips.

You didn't mentioned how long your long board was.

Scroll down this interview and you'll see a simple wooden paipo ridden in hollow waves - http://mypaipoboards.org/interviews/Tre ... 1204.shtml

Then there is Sean Ross at Pipeline - http://mypaipoboards.org/interviews/Sea ... 1109.shtml

There is a learning curve to riding these boards. Good bodysurfing skills help as well. Fins aren't essential but you need to learn how to use the rail as a fin.

Closer to you, something radical - http://emilion.chez.com/freewave/ I believe this board was designed by a Phillipe Puyo, who I've been unable to track down.


Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:48 am

Hello, thanks for your replies.
So, the rail of the board has to "bite" the wall to get grip on it ? I'll need to practice that, not sure this is something I would instinctively do.
My paipo that I mentioned as too big was 40,9 X 19,6 inch. Reading the link you provided, that doesn't seem too big. I guess what bothered me the most was the thickness of the pine plank that makes the board cumbersome (0,40 inch), with no flex at all. Regarding the board size, I have to mention that I am 65 inch, so do I need a shorter board ?
I attached a picture of this paipo, it looks different than what I described, as I started to shave it to give it a trapeze shape. The weird tail shape is an accident, there was screws that I couldn't remove properly from the wood so It ended by some kind of hole.
On the picture there is also an attempt of a small plywood paipo I built for my son, haven't tried it yet.
So, I guess I'll start a new one from scratch using plywood, no fins, and a simple shape like the one of your link.
paipo.jpg

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:30 am

Zensuni,

Ply will have more flex than your wood plank. A few things to consider.

How much float does your board have?
How many times have you surfed it?

It may be a matter of just experimenting and figuring out how to ride your board. There generally aren't role models so you need to figure a lot of this out yourself. Unless you are naturally very talented it may take a while to work out to ride your board and what suits you.

I know Tom Wegener has visited SW France so there will be someone who works with paulownia there, somewhere. It's been said a few times - keep the board simple.

Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:12 am

I was looking the pictures of Sean Ross at the pipe line, he seems to lead the board position in various ways, independently from his body's position. He is not just laying on the board, he is driving it using his arms.
Seems to be an art, and I understand now the connection between paipo riding and bodysurfing.
Will practice, practice, and practice again. For the moment I'll keep using my pine board, I'll just finish to shave it (especially the rails to make them sharper), paint it and remove the fins. The boyancy is neutral, which I like cause it makes duck diving easy.
Maybe I'll add a cork deck pad for comfort.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:49 am

Remember Sean is a very experienced/talented surfer. A mistake is for people to think riding prone is just lying down. There are at least two functions to having the board held sideways - one is to stall for the tube, the other is to assist with steep take-offs and to stall the movement to the bottom, so the bottom turn is performed in the most critical part of the wave.

Rails tend to be thinner than the main body of the board. You'll notice less drag sand fins.

Practice, practice, practice = fun. One day it will click. Find a spot where you can catch plenty of waves without having to worry about others - French beachbreaks offer some great opportunities. You are really starting from scratch. Just experiment with how far forward/back you need to be, where you put hip and arm pressure, weighting and unweighting the inside rail.

Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by kage » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:58 am

Zensuni, welcome to the forum. Your English is excellent! Those waves you describe sound pretty tough for anyone, big closeouts aren't fun. On the other hand when you ride in better waves you will have built up some mighty skills. I noticed your comment about arm position; I think what you may be seeing is the rider moving forward and back over his board. That's very important to me in controlling speed and position on the wave. Bgreen is right don't be stuck like a barnacle. Any shape is good for tubes in my opinion, but if you are a small guy like me keep it in proportion. It's tough to maneuver an oversized board. Small and nimble!

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by nomastomas » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:34 pm

I find that steep hollow waves require an aggressive rail-set, accomplished by pulling up on the beach-side rail. How much is a question of feel; if you're not holding a line, you need to engage a little more rail. In these situations is not unusual to feel the lower-half of your body being pulled up the face of the wave. And, there are times when It feels as if the prone-craft your riding is more like a hand-plane.
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by rodndtube » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:29 pm

Hmmm, well this is Phyllis Dameron riding on an early vintage boogie board:

Phyllis Dameron: You Still Thrill Us, Phyllis! via ENCYCLOPEDIA of SURFING
https://vimeo.com/75785165
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by nomastomas » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:43 pm

WOW!!
"This is a paipo site...isn't it?"
www.tp4surf.com

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by Poobah » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:08 pm

I know the focus here in this thread was wood boards, but I think it's worth mentioning John Galera's fiberglass boards.

http://mypaipoboards.org/interviews/Joh ... 0922.shtml

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by Nels » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:34 pm

Nice catch there Rod. It should be noted that Damron was riding very "paipo style" with one hand up front and another way back down the rail and her torso a bit off center, as if learned on HPD style paipo. There was another guy from that era..can't think of his name now, started with two initials and first was J. I think...I remember him actually saying in an interview that he rode that way. Probably more useful in big fast Hawaiian style waves.

Those early commercial Boogies, very flexible! Closest thing these days is a mat. And they aren't all that close...

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:57 am

rodndtube, what a bumpy ride it seems to be on the video you posted !

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by Uncle Grumpy » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:45 am

Hard to believe in retrospect but yes Phyllis charged Waimea on a first generation Boogie, the ones that were so limp you could fold 'em.

Image

Image


Mike Stewart has gotten as deep as anyone on the planet.
What's he on these days?
Paipo surfer in repose,
Nose on the nose,
No grunting he-man pose.
See how fast he goes!
What is it he knows?

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:13 pm

Limp absorbs the bumps MUCH better! I remember Dale Solomonson telling me he loved those original ones, in many ways much closer to his surf mats and that he thought Morey ruined them when he stiffened them up, took all the "life" out of them and also slowed them down and his perception was that the limp make them actually go faster, just like w/ mats (low inflation for speed, higher/harder inflation for edge hold and control)

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by Nels » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:46 pm

Stewart seems more well-known today for bodysurfing, although he still is involved with producing good bodyboards. But there's a guy who pretty well remains under radar.

J.T. Nickelson...might have been the guy I alluded to in an earlier post about paipo style riding. No way to lock that down as bodyboarding never developed a standing culture, for lack of a better term.

Dale's tri plane "bodyboards" were pretty rigid though. No time to figure out the photo posting today so here's a url...probably Good for a Limited Time Only...

http://vagabondsurf.com/TriplaneBodyboardsAgain.html

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by rodndtube » Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:00 pm

zensuni wrote:rodndtube, what a bumpy ride it seems to be on the video you posted !
Large swells, tremendous power, some cross chop in the water, tremendous wind forces coming up the face of the wave, and high speed will make many a prone board skip around. Even the big boy boards are flying every which direction unexpectedly dismounting their standing foot surfers. There are some things one can do to mitigate their paipo board slide in those conditions... go very flexi ala mat surfing or build a significant wave piercing hull in the forward section of the board. Probably lots of other ideas as well!
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:05 am

Rod,

The skipping stone phenomena and causes/solutions get a bit of mention on this thread:

http://mypaipoboards.org/forum3/viewtop ... ping#p6106

http://mypaipoboards.org/forum3/viewtop ... ping#p5993

The other angle, in relation to Zensuni's e-mail was that of riding overhead hollow-closeouts. As the joke goes, it's always overhead on a paipo. Maybe to learn more about this style of board it might be worth considering starting with some less challenging conditions. But then again, some like the deep end as a place to start.

Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:47 am

Hi there !
I finished to shave and seal the board, I also took your advices in account and built a new board (the right one on the picture bellow) with a simple shape, finless, sharp rails.
Yet it is still made of pine wood, so no rocker and no flex. The yellow stripe is to make the board more visible in the water.
I had a chance to test it this morning. As usually the conditions were too big for the beginner I am (bloody winter...), so I didn't pass the barre, just played with reforms. I took a couple of smooth, well shaped of them, and I really appreciated it.
The take off was not a problem obviously, since I was able to touch the bottom. Then the paipo just flew, it was speed and smooth in the same time, the trajectory was easy to maintain. Duck diving is so easy with that little board. I'm looking forward to test it in better conditions.
I'm not a great body boarder, but I'd say the biggest difference I felt between this paipo and body boards is the stiffness and the flat board, which makes the paipo slipping along the wave like a wet soap.
Since I was in shallow water I was a little concerned about being hit by the board, so I developed some skills in throwing out the board as far as possible from me when I felt I was about to be wiped out. Are you guys often hit by your board ? Do you wear an helmet ?
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