Which paipo for hollow waves ?

What works and what doesn't. Share design ideas, references and contacts for paipo board builders.
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zensuni
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:08 pm

I took a few (weack) waves today, and my kids told me that I spontaneously flat crossed my arms on the board during the ride. When I paddled in for a left wave, I used my left arm to handle the board (the top right corner), and the right arm to paddle. The advantage of this is that the left arm doesn't drag in the water and doesn't slow down, usefull in weack waves that can barely carry you.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by OG-AZN » Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:31 pm

Keep in mind the style or technique you use when riding wood paipos isn't an all or nothing game. All the old timers may have preferred one style over others, but most used a combo of styles to suit the wave & conditions. That's how I ride too. I'll often be doing superman, no hands, boogie style, etc on the same ride as long as the waves are cooperating. The vid is misleading because the cam mounted at the nose gets in the way of putting my arms forward & riding way up on the nose, so I get limited using certain techniques when filming. I'd encourage you to learn and experiment w/ all styles of riding and not stick to one. Being able to use different techniques really opens up new dimensions with simple wood paipos, and that's why I got hooked on them again after giving them up for awhile. Another cool thing about paipo is that nobody is going to look at you funny or peer pressure you for riding in an "unorthodox" style on a paipo like they would if you were on a boogie or short board. The younger generations have no preconceptions or point of reference to judge you by.

The one arm stroke to get speed while already riding is an old technique. One of my paipo influenced friends I grew up with used that on a boogie. You'd see him stuffed deep in huge barrels madly stroking his inside arm into the wave face to try to get more speed. There's a guy who rides Bodypo here in SF who use that technique to leverage cut backs and off the lips. I found out later he was exposed to paipo riding in Hawai'i too. When the wave slows down or gets weak, try pushing the board forward and kick hard, just like you would when taking off. Pull the board back under you when you regain speed. Paipos can transition flat sections as well as any longboard or SUP doing that.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by GeoffreyLevens » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:29 am

When the wave slows down or gets weak, try pushing the board forward and kick hard, just like you would when taking off. Pull the board back under you when you regain speed. Paipos can transition flat sections as well as any longboard or SUP doing that.
Very similar to mat surfing tech for super early take off i.e. create very long rail line (adding body length to board/mat length) while increasing planning on leading surface (by having much less weight on board of mat).

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:48 am

OG-AZN wrote: Pull the board back under you when you regain speed. Paipos can transition flat sections as well as any longboard or SUP doing that.
Do you think a longer board would help to catch weack waves ?

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:27 pm

One question; I'm considering building a plywood board. My actual board is made from a pine plank, I really like it, but I'm not sure it will be durable on the long run. After a few sessions it starts to be slightly "twisted", the shape is not as flat as it used to be, and I am not sure the glue will support the salted water on the long run. Plywood is made of one piece so I wont have to worry about the glue, but does the plywood keep its flat shape on the long run ?

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by OG-AZN » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:39 pm

zensuni wrote:
OG-AZN wrote: Pull the board back under you when you regain speed. Paipos can transition flat sections as well as any longboard or SUP doing that.
Do you think a longer board would help to catch weack waves ?
Paipos depend on overall surface / planing area so it's not necessarily length, consider width too. Increasing either dimension can help catch weak waves, but there will be trades offs in control, ease of duck diving,etc if you go to extremes. The Hawaiian HPD boards are only 40" long, but 30" wide. They're fast and catch waves easily but not the best for fast hollow beach break or shore break due to the extreme width. Longer boards may catch waves easier, but might be harder to control without skegs. I would stick with a paipo that's of similar length as you use for your bodyboard, ranging from 39" - 44" in length. Don't make the board too narrow. Stay with appx bodyboard width to start. What kind of swim fins are you using? I think swim fins are even more important than board size when it comes to paddling out and catching or staying on waves.

The warping of your pine board is just a matter of not enough sealing with varnish, oil, etc. Same thing may happen to plywood if it's not sealed enough. Most of the time the board will take on a slight positive rocker - like a surfboard or boogie, which is actually a good thing. I use marine epoxy to seal my plywood boards. You can also try the more "environmentally friendly" bio epoxies like Entropy/Supersap. Your boards will last a long time with epoxy, but simple varnish or even paint will work too.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:09 pm

OG-AZN , thanks for the accurate reply. I still use low end bodyboard fins at the moment, I'm considering buying viper fins soon. I have palmate gloves, I'll give them a shot next time. Regarding the shape, I attach a picture of my boards, the right one is the one I use. It is 15x37 inch. I find it very good for hollow waves, it is easy to control, fast and not too big. It is actually quite close to boogie riding, except the stiffness and the buoyancy. The left one is some kind of prototype, It is a little longer and it has skegs, I haven't tested it yet. I plan to test it in clean conditions. I'll go for the epoxy varnish, as I'd like to protect these boards. Do you apply it directly, or do you need to use fabric, like fiberglass ? Also, does it affect the board buoyancy ?
paipo2.jpg

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by OG-AZN » Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:03 pm

What do you mean by "low end bodyboard fins"? I haven't noticed much difference in all the Churchill clones out there. Even though bodyboarders are using them to charge ridiculous waves, I've never found Churchill style fins the best for paipo riding or bodysurfing. When bodysurfing or riding a paipo , you start your kick stroke deeper under the water and in a different position than when you're on a bodyboard. I like Vipers, but you might have to experiment to find what works best for you. Your surfing will be much more enjoyable when you find the "right" fin.

I don't use fiberglass on my paipos. I just roller or brush on the epoxy. The addition of weight is minimal with plain epoxy, and the wood will still be allowed to flex. I apply 2 coats. No noticeable change in buoyancy either. Ply boards of reasonable size are neutrally buoyant, likely less buoyant than your pine boards, but that makes them easier to duck dive. It's hard to tell from your pics that your board is only 37" x 15". That seems a bit short and narrow. My narrowest board is about 17" at the tail. Narrow & short boards are good for fast close out shorebreak where the waves are easy to catch. I suggest going a bit wider and longer for a board that can catch and get through slow weak waves. Adding planing area will make it easier to catch the small or not quite breaking waves and the extra length will allow you to move forward and get your legs out of the water for glide and speed.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:07 pm

I use these swim fins: http://www.decathlon.fr/palme-bodyboard ... 03795.html They have been ok for bodyboarding, but I would like to gain more propulsion. I saw vipers at the shop recently, they seem longer so I guess it would help. Regarding my board size, I built it short as I am 65", but that's right it may be too small. Indeed the take off is very easy in hollow shore breaks, but I'd like to be able to catch waves a little sooner. I think I'll go for a plywood board with epoxy, I'll also apply epoxy on my existing boards. I was wondering something about plywood boards, after you cut into the outline, do you shave it a little (the rails, the nose) or do you just sand it down ? The shaving process was quite laborious with my pine boards. Regarding the tickness, is 0,40" ok ?

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by rodndtube » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:40 pm

Try on the Vipers before buying unless you have narrow feet. Actually, try the Vipers fit with your usual fins of. If the fins are tight on the sides it may cause cramping in short order.

Also note there two types of Vipers, new formulation in solid colors and old formulation with a splash color.

Yellow Vipers have stiff blades in 5 inch and 7 inch blade lengths. Orange is a more flexi blade of 5 inch length.

I used the yellow and the orange 5 inch versions for several years in warm to cool waters (with up to 2mm sox). I can not fit my feet into the new solid color Vipers as the space between the foot strap and upper lip of the foot pocket is too small.

For several reasons I am now a DaFins convert.
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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by OG-AZN » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:29 pm

Zensuni-
When you use your swin fins can you feel the blade flexing a lot when you kick? If so, you should definitely upgrade your fins. Vipers, Duckfeet, and Da Fin are all popular with paipo riders and bodysurfers. They'll take some getting used to at first, but it will make a big difference in your surfing in the long run.

I've always found it beneficial to make paipos a bit wider and longer than the max dimensions of my bodyboards. The extra planing area helps in catching waves,and extra length helps in doing the old style technique of riding way up on the nose with your legs lifted out of the water. Don't go to extremes. If you can find a free or cheap source of plywood,you can experiment with a few designs. If not, you can start with a larger board and shape it down if necessary. Just don't epoxy it until you dial it in. Some people are ok with .40" plywood. I find that too flimsy for me. I use what we call 1/2" ply, more often 5/8". A lot of the old boards were 3/8", but they were reinforced with fiberglass and resin. I would do the same shaping in the nose area as you did on you pine boards. The rest is up to you. Some people say all you need are squared off rails. I shape mine. Again, you can start off with simple square rails and re-shape to your liking.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:09 pm

OG-AZN , yes the fins flex a little. It is ok for bodyboarding but I'd like a little more power for the take off. Reading your post I understand that a bigger board would help to catch waves. Most of the time it is quite hollow at my local beach breack and a smaller stiff board seems to work fine, as the take off is not that difficult (to me the difficulty is more about going fast and forward to avoid a wipe out). But there are other days where I'm sure it would help, definitely. Also I'd like to be able to catch the type of small waves that longboards would catch. What shape is you board ?

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:31 pm

Zensuni,

I was a little intrigued by you wanting to catch the waves longboards catch. If you mean catch them a long way out before they really are breaking a thin wood paipo isn't really your board to do it. Sometimes paipo riders are just at the bottom of the pecking order on small, weak days or other crowded days, as well. If you are wanting a board to glide over long sections, that a longboard can, then an alaia style board can do this. Uncle G has posted a few photos of such boards. The wider tail Hawaiian paipo design style boards can glide over flat spots but need a bit more size/power. It is a matter of trial and error fidning out the best conditions for your board and you.

Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by OG-AZN » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:59 pm

I disagree (partially)with the comment above. Traditional paipos can catch waves early and a long way out just like a longboard as long as the wave turns into something eventually. If folks don't want to take my word for it, they should go to O'ahu and watch a spot where you can still find a few paipo riders and see who's sitting the furthest outside. If the wave is really weak and never turns into anything, and the only guys catching 'em are on 10ft + boards, then it's time to get a 10ft + board or just go for swim. Paipos will never win a paddle battle with a stand up board for positioning or a race to the outside, but I stand by my claim that they can transition flat spots and catch waves like a 9 ft range longboard.

I hate to claim on forums, but I had 2 different sessions this year surfing with locals who ride longboards in all conditions at OB and train/surf way more than I do. Both times the waves were chest high to overhead, starting very slow on the outside, then jacking up and getting hollow as they hit different sandbars all the way to the shore. None of the shortboards or boogies could catch the waves on the outside or make the transitions over the slow spots. It was just me and the longboarders picking off waves from way outside, and my wave counts and lengths of ride were equal or greater. One of the guys said something like "how the heck do you get in so early on that thing"?

Zensuni - you can see my boards here. The one in the lower right corner is my favorite. 5/8" common plywood, 42" long, about 21.5" at the tail.
http://mypaipoboards.org/forum3/downloa ... d=1954&t=1

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:27 pm

I rode a few waves Today, it was a 3.2 foot waves days. Quite small, I took a few nice waves at the begining, but it ended in some kind of hollow shorebreack. The waves started to grow up quite far, but they eventually broke a little too close to the border. But it was interresting, I noticed that it was very hard to catch waves with my board just by paddling out. It is probably too small, plus I'm not a great paddler. During my rides I was wondering how it would be with a bigger board. It would probably have helped to catch the waves sooner, but I would have been concerned about driving it so close to "the wall". In the other hand, catching the wave sooner would have avoided me to do late take off and being closed out. Regarding the skegs, I noticed a slight difference in small well shaped waves, but I think I won't use them next time.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:32 pm

Bob, by longboard waves I mean waves that are not too hollow. I m not a great paddler and I am looking for anything that could help to catch waves. That said, of course I won't take the same waves that a SUP or a longboard.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:12 am

Trevor,

I reckon Hawaii and Ocean Beach probably have decent long period swells with lots of underwater energy. If we get over 11 second swells it is unusual.
Gliding over flat spots isn't a big problem but competing with mals is, at least for me.

Zensuni,
Kicking technique and going for the right wave goes a long way.

Bob

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by krusher74 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:37 pm

zensuni wrote:One question; I'm considering building a plywood board. My actual board is made from a pine plank, I really like it, but I'm not sure it will be durable on the long run. After a few sessions it starts to be slightly "twisted", the shape is not as flat as it used to be, and I am not sure the glue will support the salted water on the long run. Plywood is made of one piece so I wont have to worry about the glue, but does the plywood keep its flat shape on the long run ?

look into paulowina from portugal

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by zensuni » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:55 pm

I shaped a very basic plywood board , narrow and long. It was made of a thin plywood board. I made a rocker on the nose using steam from an iron. I added a small cork deck. It looked like a britsh bellyboard, or a french "planky", with a single small fin. I tested it Today, in very good conditions to me. For once, the wind was onshore, waves were not too big, so no big barrels and plenty of nice little waves, providing long sweet rides. The thin plywood had a lot of flex, maybe too much actually. It kind of slowed me down during the ride, but it made the take off quite easy. When I felt I was about to miss the wave during the take off, I just bent down the nose inside the wave and the rest of the board just followed. Tons of fun. But the board eventually broke in half during a take off. The plywood plank was too thin I guess :) I'd like to have another board like that with flex, maybe I'll try to glue 2 thin plywood planks to get something stronger but still flexible. Today there was no barrels, but I think that kind of simple shape, with a bit more stiffness, would work fine in small barrels. Fortunately, I brought another paipo with me, this one was stiff plywood, with an HPD shape. Perfect for that kind f waves, very fast, it provided me the longest rides I have ever had, not to mention the crazy drifting/flying feeling. I was finally able to do the superman stand :) I just bought a gopro camera so next time I'll come with a video.

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Re: Which paipo for hollow waves ?

Unread post by bgreen » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:40 am

Zensuni,


I'd use thicker plywood though you can do your own laminating - right glue, ply and technique being important? How thick was the ply? Another possibility for breaking was low quality ply and/or not well sealed ply.

Drifting - enjoy but you can also use the edge as a rail by pressing on the inside edge. Flippers can also be used for control.

Bob

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